Topics

NP Wood Reefer

Gene Deimling
 

I thought that I might share a little information on the design of the underframe for the wood reefers.   You will find an extract of the general arrangement drawing showing the underframe and two pictures showing the frame under construction.  This might clear up some of the question as to the design used on these cars.


--
Gene Deimling
El Dorado Hills, CA

Bill Daniels
 

Hi Gene... any chance you could post the full drawings, or is the half drawing all you've got?

Bill Daniels 
Santa Rosa, CA


On Sunday, November 17, 2019, 12:19:07 PM PST, Gene Deimling <proto48@...> wrote:


I thought that I might share a little information on the design of the underframe for the wood reefers.   You will find an extract of the general arrangement drawing showing the underframe and two pictures showing the frame under construction.  This might clear up some of the question as to the design used on these cars.


--
Gene Deimling
El Dorado Hills, CA

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 12:17 PM, Gene Deimling wrote:
I thought that I might share a little information on the design of the underframe for the wood reefers.   You will find an extract of the general arrangement drawing showing the underframe and two pictures showing the frame under construction.  This might clear up some of the question as to the design used on these cars.
 
They are actually not of the same car series, Gene. The drawings show truss rods and NO crossbearers, while the photos show crossbearers and no truss rids. My original question was, "Does the later series of cars, 93000's IIRC, have the same crossbearers as the 90000's?"

Dennis Storzek

lrkdbn
 

I'd like to share my thoughts about the NP reefers. This is my own thinking and some of it is speculation.
Please correct me if appropriate!
That said there seems to to be 4 different designs of underframe used on the NP reefers,(According to Brian Pate's kit instructions all the nominal 40 ft cars shared similar body dimensions and details by the 1930's)
Underframe type 1 Shown in the 1912 CBD, it was standard on box, automobile, stock, and reefers built
1912-13. A very heavily built fishbelly center sill and bolsters with a truss rod under each side sill.
Needle beams were wood. I think this is the underframe in Mr.Deimlings drawing shown above.
Underframe type 2 Used on reefers built in 1917 looks to be similar to type 1 except needle beams
are fabricated steel but still with the truss rod. The picture of NP 94631 shows this type of car. I bet as built the body was like the 1913 cars in Mr. Deimling's drawing.
Underfrane type 3- Cars built in 1922 had an underframe which upon study of photos looks to be the same as the USRA standard reefer,except that the NP car is slightly longer and wider:i.e.the NP "scaled up"the USRA design.The number of  rivets used looks to be the same.
Underframe type 4(from Brain Pate's kit instructions) used the type 1 center sill and bolsters with new steel crossbearers similar to the 1917 design but without the truss rods-the side sill was steel channel as in the 1922 cars. this was in 1930. These cars were the prototype for Pate's kit.

I also wonder if this same progression of underframes was found in NP box cars, What do you all think?
Larry King

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 08:39 PM, lrkdbn wrote:
Underfrane type 3- Cars built in 1922 had an underframe which upon study of photos looks to be the same as the USRA standard reefer,except that the NP car is slightly longer and wider:i.e.the NP "scaled up"the USRA design.The number of  rivets used looks to be the same.
Larry, Thanks for injecting some clarity into this discussion. Your refference to the USRA reefer underfranme means it should have crossbearers like this:


Crossbearer shown on the left, body bolster on the right.

In which case the Accurail fishbelly floor would be correct for those cars. Now, if someone had a roster so we could reconcile your built dates with actual car numbers, we would have this sorted. I unfortunately don't have any N.P. material.

Dennis Storzek

npin53
 

These three diagrams are from the NPRHA site.

I hope we could at lest match a number series to an under frame type. I will look in my 1953 equipment register tonight.

Aaron Gjermundson

Todd Sullivan
 

Thank you Larry, Dennis & Aaron.  I have a copy of Rick Leach's reprint of the 1940 NP freight car diagram book, but it's in storage about 1500 miles from here.  If someone else has a copy, that might help.  I'm pretty certain that the diagrams that Aaron provided would be in that reprint, but there may be more.  I am still amazed at how many diagrams it took to document NP's freight cars, especially the older ones.

Does anyone out there have a copy and can check it?

Todd Sullivan.

Todd Sullivan
 

I should have checked my January 1952 ORER before I hit send.  Here are the NP wood reefer series listed in it:

90002-90799 RS - Steel Underframe - L 43'-1" cuft 2086 - 490 cars
90802-90999 RS - Steel Underframe - L 43'-1" cuft 2086 - 135 cars
92001-92942 RS - Steel Underframe - L 43'-0" cuft 2041 - 358 cars
93000-93950 RS - Steel Underframe - L 43'-1" cuft 2086 - 199 cars
94442-94920 RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2086 - 19 cars
99942-99966 RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2148 - 5 cars
     99967       RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2086 - 1 car
99968-99995 RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2148 - 25 cars
     99980       RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2148 - 1 car

All cars are 12'-8" to top of running board and have 4'x6' doors.

Todd Sullivan

npin53
 
Edited

I think the 99900 cars were the ones with a sliding door for LCL and branch line service. I don't have my reference material here at work, or I could verify that.

Steel center sill cars had the truss rods.

Aaron

npin53
 

99900 diagram.

Dennis Storzek
 

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 12:36 PM, Todd Sullivan wrote:
90002-90799 RS - Steel Underframe - L 43'-1" cuft 2086 - 490 cars
90802-90999 RS - Steel Underframe - L 43'-1" cuft 2086 - 135 cars
92001-92942 RS - Steel Underframe - L 43'-0" cuft 2041 - 358 cars
93000-93950 RS - Steel Underframe - L 43'-1" cuft 2086 - 199 cars
94442-94920 RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2086 - 19 cars
99942-99966 RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2148 - 5 cars
     99967       RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2086 - 1 car
99968-99995 RS - Steel Center Sills - L 43'-4" cuft 2148 - 25 cars
Ignoring the 999xx series cars, which all seem to be later rebuilds, It appears the NP worked backward from 94999, so the high numbered cars are the oldest. This seems to be supported by the fact that the 94xxx series cars are marked "steel center sills" while the others are "steel underframe." Those oldest cars would be the cars with truss rods.

It's always iffy to rely on the equipment diagram drawings for this sort of data, because the drawings are little more than caricatures, just diagrams on which to hang dimensions. However, the diagram that Aaron posted for 94400-94899, built 1917, is most definitely showing truss rods, The diagram for 93000-93999, built 1922, has two little rectangles under the sill where one would expect to find the cross bearers, and I'll make the argument that the draftsman is trying to show us the shallow "USRA style" crossbearers. Now, if we had a diagram for the low 90000 cars built in 1931 and it shows the heavy crossbearers running all the way to the bottom of the center sills, we could be pretty sure that these three lots of cars had three different underframes. Better yet, a well lit photo of the 93000 series cars should confirm the form of their crossbearers, but photos that show the details of freightcar underframes are sometimes hard to come by.

Dennis Storzek


     

npin53
 

Here is a 93000. The photo is a tif. I don't see the deep cross bearers.

Aaron

brianleppert@att.net
 

I've spent too much time trying to research NP wood reefers and really wish someone else would do the job.  The rooster changed over time.  An example is the 92000 series.  An earlier series had "steel center sills", a 43'-4" outside length and 2097 cubic feet.  The Oct. 1940 lists only four cars left, compared to 866 in 1935.  This group totally disappeared in the 1940s but the number series was then used for rebuilt wood reefers.  So be careful.

Photo of NP 92629 is a Ted Culotta scan for ebay of a later car.  Tacoma, WA 2-18-55 from Bob's Photo.

Photo of NP 92238 I bought from Arnold Menke at O Scale West. Photo taken Portland, OR in Nov. 1936 and shows a still different underframe.  Scanned and posted here without his permission.  Better prints can be bought from him.  Arn's Rail Photos, 1429 Franklin St, Bisbee, Arizona 85603  waspman@...

Dennis Storzek
 

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 05:05 PM, brianleppert@... wrote:
Photo of NP 92238 I bought from Arnold Menke at O Scale West. Photo taken Portland, OR in Nov. 1936 and shows a still different underframe. 
That appears to be the same underframe as in the photo of 94631 that Aaron posted a couple pages back. Might I suggest that this is also a re-built/re-numbered car? You'll notice that these cars with two truss rods have no steel side sills, just the wood sills behind the sheathing. I think lack of a full compliment of steel sills puts them in the steel center sills category, even though they have steel body boldters and crossbearers.

Dennis Storzek

Dennis Storzek
 

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 03:09 PM, npin53 wrote:
Here is a 93000. The photo is a tif. I don't see the deep cross bearers.
Yeah, that's the image you posted a couple days ago, and no, I don't see them either. As dark as the underframe is, I would expect to see the silhouette of the crossbearer cover plate and its rivets where it passed under the center sills, if it was there. But, it's always nicer to be able to cite what IS in a picture, rather than what IS NOT.

Dennis Storzek

Andy Carlson
 

Hi-
I am reminded that back in the late 1980s, while riding the OP&E steam train (The Emperor of the North" railroad), there was a nice condition wood sided NP reefer along side of the tracks shortly after exiting Cottage Grove, the starting point for the steam trip to Bohemia. Does this reefer still survive, and if so could it be of use in revealing its underframe for those of us who care?

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Monday, November 18, 2019, 5:06:20 PM PST, brianleppert@... <brianleppert@...> wrote:


I've spent too much time trying to research NP wood reefers and really wish someone else would do the job.  The rooster changed over time.  An example is the 92000 series.  An earlier series had "steel center sills", a 43'-4" outside length and 2097 cubic feet.  The Oct. 1940 lists only four cars left, compared to 866 in 1935.  This group totally disappeared in the 1940s but the number series was then used for rebuilt wood reefers.  So be careful.

_._,_._,_


np328
 

Brian Leppert wrote : I've spent too much time trying to research NP wood reefers and really wish someone else would do the job.  The roster changed over time.  

      I live here in St. Paul, MN. Fifteen minute drive from the Minnesota Historical Society and tried over years to put a semblance of a form to the car roster. After a while, many decades, not all research time spent on researching reefer, but plenty, I came to the conclusion that:
1) Leasing affected the roster. I've dug into some accounting records, not exactly my idea of fruitful research as things just got murkier. (Leighton Hudson, fellow archivist here will say - It seems like they will roll in a car, then take a crane and lift the body off the trucks, lower a different car body on the trucks and stencil the body with the car number those trucks rolled in on.     After spending some time in the accounting books I must admit, no other theory worked as well as that.)   
2) Loading commodities affected the roster (From an NP Officer, Once having carried fish, reefers are then unfit for any other commodity. Fish service is where reefers go to die!) Was there a certain class selected to haul fish from the west? Not that I found, it seemed rather to be cars the west coast yardmasters chose on the spot. A west coast yardmaster at Centralia or Chehalis, WA  ( I forget ) sent a relatively newer reefer to a fishery and got the above telegram from the NP officer at the St. Paul offices.  
3) Changing suitability demands, in the time frame of these reefers, they could from time to time be placed in passenger trains, and often were - east of St. Paul.
       A listing of car numbers of groups of reefers that were run from Northtown (Minneapolis) to St. Paul 4th Street yard (in the direct vicinity of St. Paul Union Depot) where as soon as they were re-iced they were taken to the next passenger train east headed east at SPUD. CB&Q, Milwaukee, C&NW, didn't matter (although CNW seemed to be favored) and headed east.
          The tie-in is in the 30's after I cannot call what event wreck, roads east of Chicago required reefers have buffers of a certain quality when placed in a passenger train. (Not just steam lines which were already there, or signaling air lines, rather the whole buffer and in some cases, trucks be of a certain wheelbase.)  Many NP reefers at the time lacked these heavy buffers and so the NP rebuilt some reefers, but not others. And this created sub-classes out of what was one class prior.    
4) Bunk houses, really. In my studies on stations and depots on the NP, from time to time when sent to a remote area, an operator or agent with a family would/could demand housing. The local B&B forces would be asked to just grab "a reefer, in decent shape and suitable to be used as housing" and put in a few windows, a wall or two, and a stove. Then take it to the site requested. A later letter in the same study topic has a President (in the early 1940's I believe) ask his officers if "something can't be done about all these reefer car bodies used as housing along the ROW."     

      I was reminded of the above at the impromptu SWIFT reefer gathering at Chicagoland where some of the same concerns were listed.        Jim Dick - St. Paul                           

Douglas Harding
 

Jim as I read your treatise on researching NP reefers, I thought of the same issues with tracing Swift reefers, and my own limited study with M&StL reefers. The word lease jumps out, as there seems to be no rhyme or reason, esp with some lease companies. Cars were continually renumberd, repainted, rebuilt, repurposed and replaced. The struggles of tracing leased cars is quite daunting.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of np328
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 2:40 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP Wood Reefer

 

Brian Leppert wrote : I've spent too much time trying to research NP wood reefers and really wish someone else would do the job.  The roster changed over time.  

      I live here in St. Paul, MN. Fifteen minute drive from the Minnesota Historical Society and tried over years to put a semblance of a form to the car roster. After a while, many decades, not all research time spent on researching reefer, but plenty, I came to the conclusion that:
1) Leasing affected the roster. I've dug into some accounting records, not exactly my idea of fruitful research as things just got murkier. (Leighton Hudson, fellow archivist here will say - It seems like they will roll in a car, then take a crane and lift the body off the trucks, lower a different car body on the trucks and stencil the body with the car number those trucks rolled in on.     After spending some time in the accounting books I must admit, no other theory worked as well as that.)   
2) Loading commodities affected the roster (From an NP Officer, Once having carried fish, reefers are then unfit for any other commodity. Fish service is where reefers go to die!) Was there a certain class selected to haul fish from the west? Not that I found, it seemed rather to be cars the west coast yardmasters chose on the spot. A west coast yardmaster at Centralia or Chehalis, WA  ( I forget ) sent a relatively newer reefer to a fishery and got the above telegram from the NP officer at the St. Paul offices.  
3) Changing suitability demands, in the time frame of these reefers, they could from time to time be placed in passenger trains, and often were - east of St. Paul.
       A listing of car numbers of groups of reefers that were run from Northtown (Minneapolis) to St. Paul 4th Street yard (in the direct vicinity of St. Paul Union Depot) where as soon as they were re-iced they were taken to the next passenger train east headed east at SPUD. CB&Q, Milwaukee, C&NW, didn't matter (although CNW seemed to be favored) and headed east.
          The tie-in is in the 30's after I cannot call what event wreck, roads east of Chicago required reefers have buffers of a certain quality when placed in a passenger train. (Not just steam lines which were already there, or signaling air lines, rather the whole buffer and in some cases, trucks be of a certain wheelbase.)  Many NP reefers at the time lacked these heavy buffers and so the NP rebuilt some reefers, but not others. And this created sub-classes out of what was one class prior.    
4) Bunk houses, really. In my studies on stations and depots on the NP, from time to time when sent to a remote area, an operator or agent with a family would/could demand housing. The local B&B forces would be asked to just grab "a reefer, in decent shape and suitable to be used as housing" and put in a few windows, a wall or two, and a stove. Then take it to the site requested. A later letter in the same study topic has a President (in the early 1940's I believe) ask his officers if "something can't be done about all these reefer car bodies used as housing along the ROW."     

      I was reminded of the above at the impromptu SWIFT reefer gathering at Chicagoland where some of the same concerns were listed.        Jim Dick - St. Paul                           

brianleppert@att.net
 

No, Dennis, they are different underframes.  Compare the vertical height of the ends of the "needle beams".  On 94631 they're only a little taller than the body bolster ends.  On 92238, they're much taller.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV