1. RealSTMFC | Main
  2. Topics

O scale question

Tony Thompson
 

I find I have a Pacific Limited O scale 40-ft. flat car, labeled as “SP fish belly” design. It does indeed have a deep center sill and very slender side sills. But the car has its deck modeled WITHIN the side sills, an unusual arrangement, where SP frequently had an overhanging deck instead. Does anyone know if this actually is an SP design, and if not, any other possible prototypes?

Tony Thompson
tony@...
Brad Andonian
 

Tony,

I have the model, it is based on prototype that sP&S and Nashville Chattanooga had.


It is not SP prototype.

Brad Andonian 

On Sunday, March 5, 2023, 1:56 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

I find I have a Pacific Limited O scale 40-ft. flat car, labeled as “SP fish belly” design. It does indeed have a deep center sill and very slender side sills. But the car has its deck modeled WITHIN the side sills, an unusual arrangement, where SP frequently had an overhanging deck instead. Does anyone know if this actually is an SP design, and if not, any other possible prototypes?

Tony Thompson
Tony Thompson
 

Brad Andonian wrote:

I have the model, it is based on prototype that sP&S and Nashville Chattanooga had.

It is not SP prototype.
Thanks, Brad, I appreciate the help. Do you know the number series for the SP&S cars?

Tony Thompson
Brad Andonian
 

Tony, I will have to dig out my model, it’s somewhere in my train room at work.   Also, I have an image of one as well…my be saved on a hard drive.

On Sunday, March 5, 2023, 2:05 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

Brad Andonian wrote:
>
> I have the model, it is based on prototype that sP&S and Nashville Chattanooga had.
>
> It is not SP prototype.

Thanks, Brad, I appreciate the help. Do you know the number series for the SP&S cars?

Tony Thompson
Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

The SP definitely had flat cars without the overhanging decks, but whether they had 40 foot cars,
I don't know. I guess I should look it up in the book YOU wrote ?? :-D

On 3/5/2023 4:56 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

I find I have a Pacific Limited O scale 40-ft. flat car, labeled as “SP fish belly” design. It does indeed have a deep center sill and very slender side sills. But the car has its deck modeled WITHIN the side sills, an unusual arrangement, where SP frequently had an overhanging deck instead. Does anyone know if this actually is an SP design, and if not, any other possible prototypes?

Tony Thompson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Tim O'Connor
 

On 3/5/2023 5:05 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Brad Andonian wrote:


I have the model, it is based on prototype that sP&S and Nashville Chattanooga had.

It is not SP prototype.


Thanks, Brad, I appreciate the help. Do you know the number series for the SP&S cars?

Tony Thompson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Tony Thompson
 

Thanks to Andy, Tim and others who responded on- and off-list. But every photo sent to me shows a deck ON TOP of the side sills. You must have not read what I wrote about the Pacific Limited model:

"But the car has its deck modeled WITHIN the side sills, an unusual arrangement . . .”

Below is a photo of the model. You can see that the deck boards terminate INSIDE the side sills. Now, does anyone know of a prototype car like this? Or is this a foobie by Pacific Limited?

Tony Thompson
Jack Mullen
 

Tony,
I vaguely recall seeing a photo of a flat with straight side sills, which had the ends of the deck planks capped by an angle. I recall thinking that was an odd thing to do. That sort of seems what your model is depicting.
Sorry, I don't recall where I saw that, nor what railroad.
Pacific Limited has a reputation for accuracy and attention to detail, so I doubt it's a foob.
As to decking placed within the side sills, flush with the top flange, didn't CN have some like that built in the '50s ?

Jack Mullen
Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

Ah! Yes, I see what you mean now. The NC&StL car -could- have received that border since there is a
inch or two of set-back seen in this builder photo. But whose cars were built this way? I dunno. I wonder
if Pacific Limited found a car modified from its original form, and copied that.

Has anyone done the Dalman trucks yet? :-)


On 3/5/2023 9:27 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Thanks to Andy, Tim and others who responded on- and off-list. But every photo sent to me shows a deck ON TOP of the side sills. You must have not read what I wrote about the Pacific Limited model:

"But the car has its deck modeled WITHIN the side sills, an unusual arrangement . . .”

Below is a photo of the model. You can see that the deck boards terminate INSIDE the side sills. Now, does anyone know of a prototype car like this? Or is this a foobie by Pacific Limited?
Tony Thompson

deck.jpg


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Gary Patrik
 

From the deck photo, it looks to me like it might be an old Berkshire Valley kit from around 20 to 30 years ago.

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 8:19 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Tony

Ah! Yes, I see what you mean now. The NC&StL car -could- have received that border since there is a
inch or two of set-back seen in this builder photo. But whose cars were built this way? I dunno. I wonder
if Pacific Limited found a car modified from its original form, and copied that.

Has anyone done the Dalman trucks yet? :-)


On 3/5/2023 9:27 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Thanks to Andy, Tim and others who responded on- and off-list. But every photo sent to me shows a deck ON TOP of the side sills. You must have not read what I wrote about the Pacific Limited model:

"But the car has its deck modeled WITHIN the side sills, an unusual arrangement . . .”

Below is a photo of the model. You can see that the deck boards terminate INSIDE the side sills. Now, does anyone know of a prototype car like this? Or is this a foobie by Pacific Limited?
Tony Thompson

deck.jpg


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

--
Best regards,
Gary Patrik
Tony Thompson
 

Gary Patrik wrote:

From the deck photo, it looks to me like it might be an old Berkshire Valley kit from around 20 to 30 years ago.
That’s interesting. Do you (or anyone) know what prototype that kit modeled?

Tony Thompson
tony@...
Jack Mullen
 

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 11:51 AM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Gary Patrik wrote:

From the deck photo, it looks to me like it might be an old Berkshire Valley kit from around 20 to 30 years ago.
That’s interesting. Do you (or anyone) know what prototype that kit modeled?
Oh, that's a rabbit hole. The Berkshire Valley resin kit began as one of the early offerings from Chooch, way before the excellent UltraScale line. IIRC no specific prototype was stated but it appeared to generally suit the NCStL car the Tichy flat is based on, and various similar cars. Except - the deep section of the fishbelly centersill extends several feet past the crossbearers unlike the NCStL.
Goof in the master? Perhaps. Anyway, I've never found a matching prototype.
In any case, the deck on my Chooch kit is just Evergreen scribed sheet, and from photos the BV version is the same, so that doesn't have anything to do with Tony's Pacific Ltd model.

Jack
Tony Thompson
 

Jack Mullen wrote:

Oh, that's a rabbit hole. The Berkshire Valley resin kit began as one of the early offerings from Chooch, way before the excellent UltraScale line. IIRC no specific prototype was stated but it appeared to generally suit the NCStL car the Tichy flat is based on, and various similar cars. Except - the deep section of the fishbelly centersill extends several feet past the crossbearers unlike the NCStL.
Goof in the master? Perhaps. Anyway, I've never found a matching prototype.
In any case, the deck on my Chooch kit is just Evergreen scribed sheet, and from photos the BV version is the same, so that doesn't have anything to do with Tony's Pacific Ltd model.
Thank you, Jack. I agree with a previous poster, that Pacific Limited had a good reputation for accurate models, so I really can’t believe that the flat car I have is a foobie. I have spent a little time on-line trying to find out something about this flat car, and have struck out. Perhaps Guy Wilber knows something in this direction?

Tony Thompson
tony@...
Lowell Dorman
 

below is the flat car section of a complete listing of Pacific Limited production (and proposed production). I cannot remember the source, nor can I vouch for its accuracy - but for what it's worth...

Flat Cars

PL-1000 40’ Fishbelly Flat Car (N.C.&St.L./S.P.&S.)

            53’6" Steel Flat Car-AAR 50 Ton (1993?)  Done in several versions:

PL-????   50 pcs. Union Pacific

PL-3500  35 pcs. Chesapeake & Ohio

PL-3400  55 pcs.  Northern Pacific

PL-3200  80 pcs.  Good for 5 roads: NKP, D&RGW, C&NW, ACL, Soo Line (80 made)

            All versions imported 1993/94


Lowell Dorman


On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 1:39 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
> Jack Mullen wrote:
>
> Oh, that's a rabbit hole. The Berkshire Valley resin kit began as one of the early offerings from Chooch, way before the excellent UltraScale line. IIRC no specific prototype was stated but it appeared to generally suit the NCStL car the Tichy flat is based on, and various similar cars. Except - the deep section of the fishbelly centersill extends several feet past the crossbearers unlike the NCStL.
> Goof in the master? Perhaps. Anyway, I've never found a matching prototype.
> In any case, the deck on my Chooch kit is just Evergreen scribed sheet, and from photos the BV version is the same, so that doesn't have anything to do with Tony's Pacific Ltd model.

Thank you, Jack. I agree with a previous poster, that Pacific Limited had a good reputation for accurate models, so I really can’t believe that the flat car I have is a foobie. I have spent a little time on-line trying to find out something about this flat car, and have struck out. Perhaps Guy Wilber knows something in this direction?

Tony Thompson
tony@...
brianleppert@att.net
 

Drawings for the Nashville, Chattanooga & St.Louis flat car appear in the 1931 CBC.  It shows long angle irons protecting the top outer edges of the floor boards.  So the model is correct if the real cars were actually built that way.

BTW, I believe SP&S flat cars in revenue service were painted black.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV
Jack Mullen
 

Brian,
Well spotted. I agree that's it.  It's hard to see in photos; the one of NC&StL 70229 in my '28 Cyc is not clear enough to tell, but a better image Ray Breyer posted on this list some time ago certainly seems to show the angle covering the ends of the planks. Another photo Ray posted, of 70164 in later life also appears to show a smooth surface across the ends of the decking.  So it seems they were indeed built with the angle, and at least one may have retained that feature a long time. Other photos of similar NC&StL flats show slightly uneven ends of individual boards. Presumably, if those had the angle as built, it was removed at some point when decking was replaced.
We talk about "The" NC&StL flatcar, but there were several similar classes which differed in some details, end sill for instance. The angle might be one of the differences.

Jack Mullen
Schuyler Larrabee
 

Um,. Going back to the original question from Tony, his image was of a deck where the boards were flush with the side sills.  The “angle irons” we’re seeing on the photos do protect the outer ends of the decking . . . but they are above the side sills.  So, the model Tony began this string with would NOT be correct, unless the decking on the model is protected as shown.

 

If Tony’s so inclined, at least for the sides, he could install an appropriately sized angle and then overlay the model’s deck with wood to fit underneath the horizontal flange of that angle. Not sure how that would be treated at the ends.

 

A photo taken from above might look like the deck is flush with the steel in that case, as Tony’s photo showed, but absent a shadow one would not be able to determine that for sure.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of brianleppert@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 4:51 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] O scale question

 

Drawings for the Nashville, Chattanooga & St.Louis flat car appear in the 1931 CBC.  It shows long angle irons protecting the top outer edges of the floor boards.  So the model is correct if the real cars were actually built that way.

BTW, I believe SP&S flat cars in revenue service were painted black.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

1 - 17 of 17