OMI two dome tank car


john.allyn@...
 

The suggestion was made way back in this thread that the car maight have been purchased for off-line storage at the company's facilities.  If so, would it have shown up in the ORER?  Of course, if it was used for off-line storage why go to the expense of repainting and relettering?

John B. Allyn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@signaturepress.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 1:03:05 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: OMI two dome tank car

 




Ed Sutorik wrote:
I have found cars with reporting marks that don't show up in the
ORER before. I suppose that inclusion in the ORER is/was voluntary
and perhaps even involved giving money to the publisher. Maybe
perhaps.
No, it was NOT voluntary. The car descriptions in the ORER had
official tariff status and each issue was intended to be complete and
accurate for use by car clerks. Yes, of course, errors occurred, but
not because it didn't matter. And cars not listed in the ORER were not
supposed to be in revenue service.
Railroads spent real money collecting information and
organizing it for submission to each ORER issue. They did not pay to
be included. But many copies of each ORER were purchased by railroads
for use by agents and clerks. That's how the ORER made its money.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Aley, Jeff A
 

The magazine back cover in question (and the tank car ad) can be seen at
http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/107/7814/july-1990-page-80 .


Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of al_brown03
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:46 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: OMI two dome tank car



This photo appears on the back covers of Model Railroading and the NMRA
Bulletin, for July 1990. I could convince myself, though the reproduction isn't good, that the reweigh date is either 7/37 or 7/57. The reporting marks NIPX aren't listed in the ORER for either 1/43 or 1/53.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, "brianleppert@..." <brianleppert@...> wrote:




Overland's ad for this tank car included a prototype photo by H. A. Garritsen of NIPX #8. The ad was on the back cover of a magazine which I photocopied. Unfortunately, I don't remember which mag, but was maybe Rail Model Journal. From the mailing label, looks like it was the February, 1993 issue.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Fritz Milhaupt
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "brianleppert@..." <brianleppert@...> wrote:
Overland's ad for this tank car included a prototype photo by H. A.
Garritsen of NIPX #8. The ad was on the back cover of a magazine
which I photocopied. Unfortunately, I don't remember which mag, but
was maybe Rail Model Journal. From the mailing label, looks like it
was the February, 1993 issue.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

This car was one of the ones I'd always meant to ask Arnt Gerritsen about, since he did most of the drafting work for Overland Models back then. Sadly, he passed away in March of this year.

-Fritz Milhaupt
Modeling Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.
http://www.pmhistsoc.org


Clark Propst
 

Hey, I've got that box car! I've had it that long? Time flies...Thanks Jeff.
Clark propst

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

The magazine back cover in question (and the tank car ad) can be seen at
http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/107/7814/july-1990-page-80 .


Regards,

-Jeff


spsalso
 

I wonder if the reporting marks "NIPX" might possibly not be for Northern Indiana Public Utilities. In post-list years, the organization used "NORX", not "NIPX". And in my list-years of ORER, I can't find reference to either Northern Indiana Public Utilities or NIPX. And, although all cars with reporting marks are supposed to be listed, NIPX 8 is not; so an absolute connection between the cited organization and NIPX does not exist in the ORER's that I have.

So, I think I will speculate that "NIPX" is for a different organization--one that would have a likely use for a two dome car like OMI 3230. Since "P" also stands for plastics, I wonder if the car was used for transporting a related chemical. The car was reportedly built in 1930. If so; and if it were purpose built, the list of chemicals would be much shorter than it would be today.

I make the above speculation because I don't see a utility buying a tank car to have transformer oil delivered. Car utilization would be awfully low, I think. Why not have the manufacturer deliver the oil in THEIR tank car--one that would have much higher utilization since the manufacturer would ship an awful lot more oil. And, going the other direction, I'm not coming up with much in the load-out category.


Speculatingly,


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Ian Cranstone
 

On 2011-06-24, at 11:03 AM, spsalso wrote:

I wonder if the reporting marks "NIPX" might possibly not be for Northern Indiana Public Utilities. In post-list years, the organization used "NORX", not "NIPX". And in my list-years of ORER, I can't find reference to either Northern Indiana Public Utilities or NIPX. And, although all cars with reporting marks are supposed to be listed, NIPX 8 is not; so an absolute connection between the cited organization and NIPX does not exist in the ORER's that I have.

So, I think I will speculate that "NIPX" is for a different organization--one that would have a likely use for a two dome car like OMI 3230. Since "P" also stands for plastics, I wonder if the car was used for transporting a related chemical. The car was reportedly built in 1930. If so; and if it were purpose built, the list of chemicals would be much shorter than it would be today.

I make the above speculation because I don't see a utility buying a tank car to have transformer oil delivered. Car utilization would be awfully low, I think. Why not have the manufacturer deliver the oil in THEIR tank car--one that would have much higher utilization since the manufacturer would ship an awful lot more oil. And, going the other direction, I'm not coming up with much in the load-out category.
No need to speculate as to owner, or car series: NIPX 6-8 were listed in the July 1932 ORER with a listing modification date of May 1931 (probably their first as neither the reporting mark or the owner appear in the March 1931 issue) under the name Northern Indiana Public Service Co. These were the only cars in the listing, with use unspecified. By the July 1933 ORER, they were no longer listed, most likely meaning that they had been turned over to one of the large leasing companies (GATX, SHPX, UTLX).

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
www.nakina.net


spsalso
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ian Cranstone <lamontc@...> wrote:

On 2011-06-24, at 11:03 AM, spsalso wrote:

I wonder if the reporting marks "NIPX" might possibly not be for Northern Indiana Public Utilities. In post-list years, the organization used "NORX", not "NIPX". And in my list-years of ORER, I can't find reference to either Northern Indiana Public Utilities or NIPX. And, although all cars with reporting marks are supposed to be listed, NIPX 8 is not; so an absolute connection between the cited organization and NIPX does not exist in the ORER's that I have.

So, I think I will speculate that "NIPX" is for a different organization--one that would have a likely use for a two dome car like OMI 3230. Since "P" also stands for plastics, I wonder if the car was used for transporting a related chemical. The car was reportedly built in 1930. If so; and if it were purpose built, the list of chemicals would be much shorter than it would be today.

I make the above speculation because I don't see a utility buying a tank car to have transformer oil delivered. Car utilization would be awfully low, I think. Why not have the manufacturer deliver the oil in THEIR tank car--one that would have much higher utilization since the manufacturer would ship an awful lot more oil. And, going the other direction, I'm not coming up with much in the load-out category.
No need to speculate as to owner, or car series: NIPX 6-8 were listed in the July 1932 ORER with a listing modification date of May 1931 (probably their first as neither the reporting mark or the owner appear in the March 1931 issue) under the name Northern Indiana Public Service Co. These were the only cars in the listing, with use unspecified. By the July 1933 ORER, they were no longer listed, most likely meaning that they had been turned over to one of the large leasing companies (GATX, SHPX, UTLX).

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
www.nakina.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you, Ian, for the info. Speculation withdrawn. Well, that one, anyway. This info sorta implies that the ad photo was taken in the early thirties. The top-activated coupler kinda gets me thinking that, too. I know next to nothing about couplers, so that speculative sentence is pretty, well, speculative.

Interesting.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


spsalso
 

Wait a sec. Someone pointed out that the car may have been withdrawn from service (interchange). If that were the case, the car could have sat on a siding somewhere untouched for a very long time. And not have the TILX painted out. And be photographed much later than the early thirtiesl If it went over to GATX, though, I would think it would have had the reporting marks changed. So, then, needle-in-a-haystack time--finding a photo or other info with OMI 3230 in GATX lettering/service.

I've gotta say it's pretty neat how the folks on the list have helped put a story together about this one item. Yes, very nice.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Tim O'Connor
 

Ian

Except that the photograph in the Overland ad is clearly of far more
recent vintage, probably taken in the 1970's or 1980's. (Notice the high
voltage transmission tower in the background.)

I can't find any listing for NIPX in 1972 or 1988 or any other source,
except for your 1932 entry. http://www.nakina.net/other/report/reportn.html

General American does list some 10,000 gallon two-compartment tank cars in
the 1950's, and I have a photo of GATX 1018. But that car is not insulated,
has radial rivets, and was clearly converted from a single dome car.

The photo of NIPX #8 is a real mystery. I thought it might be NIRX or NIBX
but those letters don't make any sense either.

Tim O'Connor

------------------------------------------------

No need to speculate as to owner, or car series: NIPX 6-8 were listed in the July 1932 ORER
with a listing modification date of May 1931 (probably their first as neither the reporting
mark or the owner appear in the March 1931 issue) under the name Northern Indiana Public Service Co.
These were the only cars in the listing, with use unspecified. By the July 1933 ORER, they were
no longer listed, most likely meaning that they had been turned over to one of the large
leasing companies (GATX, SHPX, UTLX).

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
www.nakina.net


Bruce Smith
 

Huh Tim?

Electrical high voltage towers existed in 1930. In fact, the Northern Indiana Public Service Company (now known as NIPSCO) was founded by the merger of Calumet Electric Company, whose 1912 date of incorporation is usually given as the inception of NIPSCO and Northern Indiana Gas under the umbrella of the Midland Utilities Company, managed by Samuel Insull.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Jun 24, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Ian

Except that the photograph in the Overland ad is clearly of far more
recent vintage, probably taken in the 1970's or 1980's. (Notice the high
voltage transmission tower in the background.)

I can't find any listing for NIPX in 1972 or 1988 or any other source,
except for your 1932 entry. http://www.nakina.net/other/report/ reportn.html

General American does list some 10,000 gallon two-compartment tank cars in
the 1950's, and I have a photo of GATX 1018. But that car is not insulated,
has radial rivets, and was clearly converted from a single dome car.

The photo of NIPX #8 is a real mystery. I thought it might be NIRX or NIBX
but those letters don't make any sense either.

Tim O'Connor

------------------------------------------------

No need to speculate as to owner, or car series: NIPX 6-8 were listed in the July 1932 ORER
with a listing modification date of May 1931 (probably their first as neither the reporting
mark or the owner appear in the March 1931 issue) under the name Northern Indiana Public Service Co.
These were the only cars in the listing, with use unspecified. By the July 1933 ORER, they were
no longer listed, most likely meaning that they had been turned over to one of the large
leasing companies (GATX, SHPX, UTLX).

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
www.nakina.net



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Tim O'Connor
 

Yeah? Find me a photo of a 1930's tower that looks like that one.
(The single pole tower seen to the left of the tank.)

There are still 1930's eras towers in my town, so I think I know
what they look like.

Also, Tom Marsh often took photos of cars in the area around
Indiana where he was based - In many cases Tom got field
measurements of cars in order to produce the models, and since
the model is clearly based on this car, I think that's exactly
what he did.

The car may indeed be on the property of the utility. I have
seen many such in-plant freight cars. But that one appears to
have AAR interchange-compliant stencils. Hence, the mystery.

Tim O'Connor

At 6/24/2011 03:45 PM Friday, you wrote:
Huh Tim?

Electrical high voltage towers existed in 1930. In fact, the
Northern Indiana Public Service Company (now known as NIPSCO) was
founded by the merger of Calumet Electric Company, whose 1912 date of
incorporation is usually given as the inception of NIPSCO and
Northern Indiana Gas under the umbrella of the Midland Utilities
Company, managed by Samuel Insull.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


spsalso
 

Tim,

The photo is credited to Gerritsen, not Marsh.

Also, there would be no particular reason to remove lettering just because a car was removed from interchange service and "stored". I don't think, anyway. Now perhaps there's something about the lettering that indicates a recent date or the like; I can't see it well enough to tell.




Ed

Edward Sutorik


Ian Cranstone
 

On 2011-06-24, at 3:34 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Except that the photograph in the Overland ad is clearly of far more
recent vintage, probably taken in the 1970's or 1980's. (Notice the high
voltage transmission tower in the background.)

I can't find any listing for NIPX in 1972 or 1988 or any other source,
except for your 1932 entry. http://www.nakina.net/other/report/reportn.html

General American does list some 10,000 gallon two-compartment tank cars in
the 1950's, and I have a photo of GATX 1018. But that car is not insulated,
has radial rivets, and was clearly converted from a single dome car.

The photo of NIPX #8 is a real mystery. I thought it might be NIRX or NIBX
but those letters don't make any sense either.
Actually, Tim raises some interesting points here, and so I dug into this a little bit further:

A closer examination of the photo shows what look to my eye like AB brake components, which almost certainly were not installed on a car built in 1930 (as I recall, AB brakes were required on new cars beginning in the fall of 1933. I'm guessing (without much other evidence) that this photo more likely dates to the 1950s.

Also, I pulled my June 1936 copy of Tank Car Capacities off the shelf, and lo and behold, there was a listing for NIPX 6 through 8, all two-compartment tank cars. What is interesting is that the ORER had stopped listing these cars by 1933, strongly suggesting that these cars were in captive service (today for example, most coal gondolas are not listed in the ORERs).

So much for my theory that these cars had been transferred to a large leasing company...

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@nakina.net
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net


Tim O'Connor
 

The photo is credited to Gerritsen, not Marsh.
True, but that doesn't indicate who the photographer was. There's
a photo just below credited to Bob's Photo. As someone who lent a
number of negatives to Bob to make prints, I can tell you that in
the era of this advertisement, Bob barely had a clue where most of the
photos in his inventory had come from.

There would be no particular reason to remove lettering just because
a car was removed from interchange service and "stored".
True, but since I think the photo was most likely taken many years after
the car was listed for NIPX, it seems unlikely that the lettering would
be in such good condition if it was the original lettering.

Tim O'Connor


cwilson@...
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Fritz Milhaupt" <fmilhaupt@...> wrote:

This car was one of the ones I'd always meant to ask Arnt Gerritsen about, since he did most of the drafting work for Overland Models back then. Sadly, he passed away in March of this year.

-Fritz Milhaupt
Modeling Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.
http://www.pmhistsoc.org
Arnt Gerritsen and I discussed this car back when I was painting one for a friend's railroad. The prototype for the model was at a NIPSCo (Northern Indiana Public Service Co) plant (Michigan City Indiana as I recall) close to where Arnt lived. He got permission to photograph and measure it. He was uncertain as to its heritage and thought that it might have been built for a predecessor of the present utility. At the time he measured it for drawings it was mostly forgotten and unused, and probably had been for a long while. Were there other cars built to this design? He did not know but it made for some nice drawings and a nice looking model.

And the model I painted? Arnt speculated that it rather looked like a GATX design so we found a gap in a GATX number series from the ORER. The model became a GATX car and is still running off miles to this day.

Craig Wilson


al_brown03
 

Mr Wilson,

Any idea about when (nearest decade will do) Mr Gerritsen examined the car?

Point is: (1) The Overland ad gives a built date of 8/30. (2) Mr Cranstone states NIPX 6-8 appeared in the 7/32 ORER. Simplest interpretation: they were built for NIPX, and were available for interchange service at first. (3) There's no NIPX listing after that. (4) If Mr Gerritsen looked over the car decades later, and it still bore NIPX lettering, one suspects it was withdrawn from interchange in the mid-30s and stayed in-plant thereafter. (Numerous short-lines' listings state "Freight cars owned are not interchanged" or the like, without further specifics.)

Secondary point: I'm tempted to dig through the 1/43 ORER, looking for groups of three insulated 50-ton tank cars. Ideally they'd be described as compartmented, but that description isn't universal to say the least. (The GATX listing, for one, is infamously un-specific.) But if the cars sat at NIPX plants till (say) the 50s, that literature search is pointless.

Random points: (1) This sorta reminds me of the (in)famous Jones & Laughlin tanks, discussed at length on this group: a small number of cars, in restricted service, but modelled commercially. (2) The NIPX cars' design isn't all that strange. It would be really cool to find other examples, and I strongly suspect there are some. (3) The Standard Tank Car GATX 6000-gallon twin-dome tank, modelled by a beautiful Southern Car & Foundry kit, isn't particularly strange either; but AFAIK only a single example is known. More examples of *that* would be really cool to find also, and again I think it *isn't weird enough* for there not to be some. (4) I first joined the STMFC looking for info about another similar case. About 1950, Southern Fruit Distributors, in Orlando, acquired two 8000-gallon ARA Type II cars (30+ years old!), SFDX 101-102. Ya gotta model your hometown industry; but I've never found out anything about these cars.

Freight-car research, especially about tank cars, is fun but frustrating!

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, cwilson@... wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Fritz Milhaupt" <fmilhaupt@> wrote:

This car was one of the ones I'd always meant to ask Arnt Gerritsen about, since he did most of the drafting work for Overland Models back then. Sadly, he passed away in March of this year.

-Fritz Milhaupt
Modeling Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.
http://www.pmhistsoc.org
Arnt Gerritsen and I discussed this car back when I was painting one for a friend's railroad. The prototype for the model was at a NIPSCo (Northern Indiana Public Service Co) plant (Michigan City Indiana as I recall) close to where Arnt lived. He got permission to photograph and measure it. He was uncertain as to its heritage and thought that it might have been built for a predecessor of the present utility. At the time he measured it for drawings it was mostly forgotten and unused, and probably had been for a long while. Were there other cars built to this design? He did not know but it made for some nice drawings and a nice looking model.

And the model I painted? Arnt speculated that it rather looked like a GATX design so we found a gap in a GATX number series from the ORER. The model became a GATX car and is still running off miles to this day.

Craig Wilson


Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Craig! You've cleared up that mystery for the rest of us.

Was Arnt involved with any of the other Overland mystery tank cars?
I know the 8,000 gallon ACF cars have come up before (3133/3134),
the ACF 3-dome car (3132) and ACF 2-dome car (3131). I don't recall
anyone being able to identify a prototype for any of them. I'm pretty
sure OMI 3130, an ACF 1-dome 8k tank car, is just a standard Type 27
or something very much like that.

Overland did some nice 8k modernized GATC tank cars (3270/3271) and
I've seen photos of close prototypes, but I don't recall anyone identifying
a specific prototype known to have been followed to make the models.

Tim O'Connor

---------------------------------------------

Arnt Gerritsen and I discussed this car back when I was painting one for a friend's railroad. The prototype for the model was at a NIPSCo (Northern Indiana Public Service Co) plant (Michigan City Indiana as I recall) close to where Arnt lived. He got permission to photograph and measure it. He was uncertain as to its heritage and thought that it might have been built for a predecessor of the present utility. At the time he measured it for drawings it was mostly forgotten and unused, and probably had been for a long while. Were there other cars built to this design? He did not know but it made for some nice drawings and a nice looking model.
Craig Wilson


ron christensen
 

I moved to MIchigan in 1974 a tank car set on a piece of track no longer connected to a railroad at New Carlisle Indiana. This car was in a Northern Indiana Electric switch yard.
I think it might have had more than one dome. Too bad I didn't take a picture.
Ron Christensen


cwilson@...
 

OMI 3230 does not appear in Brian Marsh's book "Overland Models the first 10 years" which covers the period 1976-1986. That plus the 1990 cover date of the magazine ad should narrow down the time frame. As to exactly when Arnt photographed the tank car and did the drawings, I cannot say. He was doing some drafting work for Overland (and other brass importers) before going to work full time for OMI. Arnt was a prolific draftsman as evidenced by the sheer volume of models produced by Overland during his tenure there. While most of his work was specific to company projects, he was known to draw things that he just found "interesting." And if they were interesting enough, Tom Marsh could decide to have the models produced.

This tank car could have been one of these special projects. The photo in the magazine ad is no doubt one that Arnt took when he did his field measurements so I would speculate that it was taken in the 1980's or perhaps late 1970's. As I wrote before, he was unsure about how many cars were built to this design and was not able to find photos of other examples of it. But it was "interesting" enough to catch his attention.

Craig Wilson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

Any idea about when (nearest decade will do) Mr Gerritsen examined the car?

Point is: (1) The Overland ad gives a built date of 8/30. (2) Mr Cranstone states NIPX 6-8 appeared in the 7/32 ORER. Simplest interpretation: they were built for NIPX, and were available for interchange service at first. (3) There's no NIPX listing after that. (4) If Mr Gerritsen looked over the car decades later, and it still bore NIPX lettering, one suspects it was withdrawn from interchange in the mid-30s and stayed in-plant thereafter. (Numerous short-lines' listings state "Freight cars owned are not interchanged" or the like, without further specifics.)


Jack Mullen
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

As I said originally, the car is really too big to be a wine
car. At the time I made that suggestion, really only intended as
speculation, the heater coils hadn't been mentioned, and as Richard
says, the mind boggles to think of wine which could either withstand
or NEED heater coils.
C'mon Tony,

Obviously, the steam coils are for mulling in transit.

Jack Mullen