Ore car help


Mel Chase
 

A fellow modeler is interested in building the attached ore car and asked if there are any drawings available.  Any chance someone here would know about this car and have better photos and a possible drawing.  thanks,  Mel


Thomas Evans
 

Yes Mel,

John White's American Railroad Freight Car has an excellent detailed plan of this car on pp354-355.
It's reproduced from  Engineering News of April 19, 1890 (so a bit outside the time frame of this group, but obviously still in use later).
We've had some discussion of it over on the Early Rail site from time to time most recently in September 2019.
Here's a link to the LofC site for this photo:

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2005679929/

Tom E.


Thomas Evans
 

I forgot to mention that the Pennsy had some similar cars in that period that also show up in LofC photos.
You'll want to download the highest resolution scan of the first photo here to see detail.  (It may take a while to download)

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/det/item/2016800799/

Tom


Steve and Barb Hile
 

With a little help from Google, you can find the Engineering New article at

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=tSpKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA371-IA1&lpg=PA371-IA1&dq=engineering+news+april+19+1890&source=bl&ots=ieC7H681hn&sig=ACfU3U27xodyEtDaPhLpSe8fOAkAK1mJ7w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifh6Lo1rjpAhXkl3IEHadTDPwQ6AEwA3oECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=engineering%20news%20april%2019%201890&f=false

 

But the drawing was a fold out page that is a little worse for wear.  See the attached.

 

The steel car in the background is a Standard Steel Car company build, with builder’s photo available from Keith Retterer number A-261 and A-262, built in 1905.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Thomas Evans via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ore car help

 

Yes Mel,

John White's American Railroad Freight Car has an excellent detailed plan of this car on pp354-355.
It's reproduced from  Engineering News of April 19, 1890 (so a bit outside the time frame of this group, but obviously still in use later).
We've had some discussion of it over on the Early Rail site from time to time most recently in September 2019.
Here's a link to the LofC site for this photo:

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2005679929/

Tom E.


Mel Chase
 

Thank you both Tom and Steve for the information.  Looks like there is enough there to build that good looking ore car.  I forwarded your replies to him.  Mel


Dennis Storzek
 

That car was discussed by William Voss in his work on freight car construction, reprinted years ago in the Trainshed Cuclopedia series as "Freightcars 1892". I don't recall the name of Voss' original work. In it Voss makes the statement that since car capacity had reached the practical limit of carrying capacity of wrought Iron axles, high capacity cars of the future would have three or more trucks. That on the cusp of the of steel being adopted for axle material. The rest, as they say, is history.

Dennis Storzek


A&Y Dave in MD
 

Sounds like a prototype variant on the Modelers’ Law: scratchbuild or kitbash a steam era freight car and a commercial product will likely appear (with the corollary—it will only appear in commercial form if you only needed one or two; if you need a fleet, they will remain unavailable and your notes on how you built the first will disappear mysteriously).

Dave Bott


On May 16, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

That car was discussed by William Voss in his work on freight car construction, reprinted years ago in the Trainshed Cuclopedia series as "Freightcars 1892". I don't recall the name of Voss' original work. In it Voss makes the statement that since car capacity had reached the practical limit of carrying capacity of wrought Iron axles, high capacity cars of the future would have three or more trucks. That on the cusp of the of steel being adopted for axle material. The rest, as they say, is history.

Dennis Storzek

--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34


Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Steve, Tom and Mel,
 
It’s definitely an interesting car.  I dug out my copy of White’s The American Railroad Freight Car, and checked the drawings and related text.  That center truck was able to slide up to five inches off center.  That’s not all that much in HO scale, but it’s going to take some serious head scratching to figure out how to do that on a model.  If anyone has any ideas along those lines, I’s love to hear them.
 
Mel – Should you decide to build one (or more) of these, please keep us posted.  Thanks.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 11:37 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ore car help
 

With a little help from Google, you can find the Engineering New article at

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=tSpKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA371-IA1&lpg=PA371-IA1&dq=engineering+news+april+19+1890&source=bl&ots=ieC7H681hn&sig=ACfU3U27xodyEtDaPhLpSe8fOAkAK1mJ7w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifh6Lo1rjpAhXkl3IEHadTDPwQ6AEwA3oECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=engineering%20news%20april%2019%201890&f=false

 

But the drawing was a fold out page that is a little worse for wear.  See the attached.

 

The steel car in the background is a Standard Steel Car company build, with builder’s photo available from Keith Retterer number A-261 and A-262, built in 1905.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Thomas Evans via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ore car help

 

Yes Mel,

John White's American Railroad Freight Car has an excellent detailed plan of this car on pp354-355.
It's reproduced from  Engineering News of April 19, 1890 (so a bit outside the time frame of this group, but obviously still in use later).
We've had some discussion of it over on the Early Rail site from time to time most recently in September 2019.
Here's a link to the LofC site for this photo:

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2005679929/

Tom E.


Charles Peck
 

The modeling idea that first struck me was this.  Have a vertical pin, delrin or such, 
sticking up from the truck pivot point.  Cut a slot sideways in the center bolster for 
the pin to slide in sideways.  No weight on the truck, just for show.
At least this would be my first try. It might work, or it might sit on the shelf.
Chuck Peck

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 7:39 PM Ralph W. Brown <rbrown51@...> wrote:
Hi Steve, Tom and Mel,
 
It’s definitely an interesting car.  I dug out my copy of White’s The American Railroad Freight Car, and checked the drawings and related text.  That center truck was able to slide up to five inches off center.  That’s not all that much in HO scale, but it’s going to take some serious head scratching to figure out how to do that on a model.  If anyone has any ideas along those lines, I’s love to hear them.
 
Mel – Should you decide to build one (or more) of these, please keep us posted.  Thanks.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 
From: Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 11:37 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ore car help
 

With a little help from Google, you can find the Engineering New article at

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=tSpKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA371-IA1&lpg=PA371-IA1&dq=engineering+news+april+19+1890&source=bl&ots=ieC7H681hn&sig=ACfU3U27xodyEtDaPhLpSe8fOAkAK1mJ7w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifh6Lo1rjpAhXkl3IEHadTDPwQ6AEwA3oECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=engineering%20news%20april%2019%201890&f=false

 

But the drawing was a fold out page that is a little worse for wear.  See the attached.

 

The steel car in the background is a Standard Steel Car company build, with builder’s photo available from Keith Retterer number A-261 and A-262, built in 1905.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Thomas Evans via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ore car help

 

Yes Mel,

John White's American Railroad Freight Car has an excellent detailed plan of this car on pp354-355.
It's reproduced from  Engineering News of April 19, 1890 (so a bit outside the time frame of this group, but obviously still in use later).
We've had some discussion of it over on the Early Rail site from time to time most recently in September 2019.
Here's a link to the LofC site for this photo:

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2005679929/

Tom E.


Thomas Evans
 

The drawing in ARRFC isn't quite as detailed, but at least it's all there.
(The end & x-section drawings are the same, so I won't repeat them.)

Tom


Dennis Storzek
 

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 04:39 PM, Ralph W. Brown wrote:
That center truck was able to slide up to five inches off center.  That’s not all that much in HO scale, but it’s going to take some serious head scratching to figure out how to do that on a model.  If anyone has any ideas along those lines, I’s love to hear them.
It's also likely barely enough for model railroad curves. A quick layout in CAD shows that if the car has twenty foot truck centers between the outer trucks, the center truck needs to displace .053" on an 18" radius curve. That's 4-5/8 inches in HO scale.

Sliding elements are just asking for trouble. I would  build the car with enough clearance around the truck and connect the middle truck to one of he end kingpins with a thin flat drawbar, similar to the way pilot trucks are attached on steam loco models. So long as there is room for the middle truck to bobble around without hitting anything on the car, it will run just fine.

Dennis Storzek


Schuyler Larrabee
 

There are a lot of useful answers to your question, some revealing where it was in all my own references that I couldn’t find to help someone else who emailed me about a week or so ago.  But there’s another thing to look for and that is that when Thomas Edison was making his earliest movies, these cars show up in, no less, a rotary dumper (!!) in, I believe, Cleveland.

 

Edison made a number of movies utilizing trains, several of which involve trains on the Lackawanna Railroad, which was convenient to his New Jersey workshop.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mel Chase via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 1:44 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Ore car help

 

A fellow modeler is interested in building the attached ore car and asked if there are any drawings available.  Any chance someone here would know about this car and have better photos and a possible drawing.  thanks,  Mel


Schuyler Larrabee
 

So, Dennis, since you’ve already laid out the basics, what would be the minimum radius for this car if the center truck is limited to a 5” displacement, which I read to mean a total of ten inches overall.  A five inch displacement is, I think, five inches from the center line, not a total of five inches side to side.  Based on 4 5/8” off center, if that’s what you meant, it sounds like a 20” minimum radius might be sufficient, assuming the truck’s lateral movement is free.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 12:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ore car help

 

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 04:39 PM, Ralph W. Brown wrote:

That center truck was able to slide up to five inches off center.  That’s not all that much in HO scale, but it’s going to take some serious head scratching to figure out how to do that on a model.  If anyone has any ideas along those lines, I’s love to hear them.

It's also likely barely enough for model railroad curves. A quick layout in CAD shows that if the car has twenty foot truck centers between the outer trucks, the center truck needs to displace .053" on an 18" radius curve. That's 4-5/8 inches in HO scale.

Sliding elements are just asking for trouble. I would  build the car with enough clearance around the truck and connect the middle truck to one of he end kingpins with a thin flat drawbar, similar to the way pilot trucks are attached on steam loco models. So long as there is room for the middle truck to bobble around without hitting anything on the car, it will run just fine.

Dennis Storzek


Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 12:44 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
So, Dennis, since you’ve already laid out the basics, what would be the minimum radius for this car if the center truck is limited to a 5” displacement, which I read to mean a total of ten inches overall.
Well, so I finally looked at the drawing of the Erie car for the actual truck centers rather than guessing. They are 11'-2", or 22'-4" over the outer trucks. With a 5" displacement from center line, an arc through all three kingpins is 22.644" radius, and that would allow nothing for kinks and dips, so it seems the cars should track through 24" radius curves. To run on 18" radius track the center truck needs to displace .066", just a shade under six scale inches.

Dennis Storzek


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Thanks, Dennis.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:07 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ore car help

 

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 12:44 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

So, Dennis, since you’ve already laid out the basics, what would be the minimum radius for this car if the center truck is limited to a 5” displacement, which I read to mean a total of ten inches overall.

Well, so I finally looked at the drawing of the Erie car for the actual truck centers rather than guessing. They are 11'-2", or 22'-4" over the outer trucks. With a 5" displacement from center line, an arc through all three kingpins is 22.644" radius, and that would allow nothing for kinks and dips, so it seems the cars should track through 24" radius curves. To run on 18" radius track the center truck needs to displace .066", just a shade under six scale inches.

Dennis Storzek


Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

    Since this thread began I have been wondering how the B&O addressed this same problem.....but on
steam locomotive tenders rather than ore cars. In my negative collection are two negatives of a B&O
2-8-8-0 with a long Vanderbilt tender also haveing a third truck positined between the normal pair near
each end. Does nayone know what sort of mechanism the middle truck on this tender had?

My best,Don Valentine


Thomas Evans
 

The plans for this car are also in the 1895 & 1898 Car Builders Dictionary along with a photo of an apparently identical LS&MS car.
These were reproduced in Newton Gregg's Train Shed Cyclopedia #55 (for the photo) & #57 (for the plan).

Tom


Mel Chase
 

This is a follow up to let everyone know that Jim Kubajak has finished the Erie Ore Car.  I will add six photos to the archive and label it as such.  But most of all a big Thank You for all the replies goes out to Tom Evans, Steve Hile, Schuyler Larrabee, Dennis Storzek, Ralph W. Brown, Charles Peck, and Dave Bott.  This model is just great looking.  I had the chance to hold it in my hands.  Quite delicate and that was one of the major headaches, Jim mentioned, to build it strong enough to handle.  The pivot point for the center truck is slotted side to side so it successfully tracks though turnouts and curves.  He has moved on to other projects and said the ore car will be one of a kind.  Mel