Topics

P2K Tank Cars & K brakes


Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

Be aware that Cal-Scale (Bowser) has PERMANENTLY discontinued their part
#199-290 and #190-291, which were KC brake sets in plastic and brass
respectively!! The mold is worn out/damaged, and since they were doing
the brass sets via "lost plastic" casting, those got canceled also.

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the order
rate just doesn't justify it. In fact he specifically said that while
they redid the AB brake mold, the order rate is such that he figures it
could be 35 - 50 years just 'till he recovers the money spent, to say
nothing of lost interest and available capital for other product.

Sorry to be the messenger of bad/disappointing news.

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------


byronrose@...
 

On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 10:59:52 -0500 Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
writes:
Be aware that Cal-Scale (Bowser) has PERMANENTLY discontinued their
part
#199-290 and #190-291, which were KC brake sets in plastic and brass
respectively!! The mold is worn out/damaged, and since they were
doing
the brass sets via "lost plastic" casting, those got canceled also.

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the
order
rate just doesn't justify it. In fact he specifically said that
while
they redid the AB brake mold, the order rate is such that he figures
it
could be 35 - 50 years just 'till he recovers the money spent, to
say
nothing of lost interest and available capital for other product.

Sorry to be the messenger of bad/disappointing news.

Max
Max,

What Lee neglected to tell you was that they did such a poor job of
tooling it that anyone who's knowledgeable will shun them. Besides,
while they were off the market several others became available which have
permanently replaced the mess that the CalScale set had turned into. Try
comparing the castings as they were originally made 40+ years ago (or
Grandt Lines current set) to the current CalScale. The original patterns
had been distorted by their "repair" over the years to the point that the
AB valve was about half the height it should have been (you couldn't
attach more than 3 pipes where 6 need to be placed) and one side of the
reservoir was larger than the other half. The cylinder and retainer
valve were also shortened but nobody would know because nobody knows what
the correct sizes should be. Unfortunately, that is what Lee English
copied to make the new tooling. They got what they
bargained for.

The irony is that some of the new sets are no more than copies (rip-offs
is the technical term) of the inferior CalScale sets.

The best set on the market, IMHO, is from Grandt Line. The components in
it are closest to scale size. Try mounting a reservoir ATSF style with
the Tichy set. In my humbler opinion, my sets ain't too bad either!!

BSR (doing what he does best!)
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Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

Byron:

Unfortunately I am aware of this degradation of quality problem, since I
still have some Cal-Scale K brake sets purchased directly from John
Anderson in the early '60s (mostly on cars I must admit).

I've been using those sparingly and some of the Grandt ones also. How
do I order yours? (Part # & $ to send?)

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------


Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the order
rate just doesn't justify it.
A very late question (I've been out of town):

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling cost
would be. $2,800?

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


byronrose@...
 

Jeff,

That's probably correct. Since they would screw it up so much, no one
would buy whatever it is you're talking about and they'd never make their
28 bucks back.

Okay, okay, I know you're talking about K brakes. And Bowser.

But wasn't there a rumor several (many?) months ago that LifeLike was
gonna retool the underframe back to K brakes for a future run of the P2K
tank cars?

Just asking.

BSR


On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:38:25 -0800 (PST) Jeff Aley - GCD PE
<jaley@...> writes:
On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the
order
rate just doesn't justify it.
A very late question (I've been out of town):

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling
cost
would be. $2,800?

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

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Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the order
rate just doesn't justify it.
A very late question (I've been out of town):

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling cost
would be. $2,800?

Regards,

-Jeff
Um Jeff...my bet is that we'll be adding another zero - $28,000

Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

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Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

You're right that was a typo. The cost to "rebuild" the mold is
$28,000. Be aware that rebuild may be a misnomer since often when molds
reach the end of repairable life new ones are fabricated from scratch.

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I have a problem with the figure of $28,000 to cut a mold for a K-brake.
We are talking one part 3/4" long here. I think probably $2,800 is more
accurate. At 10 cents a part profit it would take 28,000 parts to break
even, probably more than could be sold in 10 years!
Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

I believe that the K brake set that CalScale used to make included other
parts besides the actual cylinder/reservoir, such as levers, brake
wheel, retainer valve etc.

Max


Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Jan 4, 4:53pm, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] P2K Tank Cars & K brakes
On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the
order
rate just doesn't justify it.
A very late question (I've been out of town):

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling cost
would be. $2,800?

Regards,

-Jeff
Um Jeff...my bet is that we'll be adding another zero - $28,000

Wow! That's a pretty big pile of money! I thought that one could tool an
entire freight car for $100,000. Are the brakes really 1/4 of the total
cost? Or is most of the $28,000 "overhead"? [Or does it cost a heck of a
lot more than $100K for a freight car?]

Somebody once tried to explain to me how molding costs worked. I didn't
understand fully, but I thought he said something about a "mold base" that
was a significant part of the tooling cost, and that if the "mold base"
was reusable, the incremental costs were much smaller. Does this kind of
thing apply in this case? (Should I subscribe to the Tooling Costs for
Injection Molded Plastic Freight Cars List (TCIMPFCL)??)

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


thompson@...
 

Jeff Aley comments:
Wow! That's a pretty big pile of money! I thought that one could tool an
entire freight car for $100,000. Are the brakes really 1/4 of the total
cost? Or is most of the $28,000 "overhead"? [Or does it cost a heck of a
lot more than $100K for a freight car?]
I may be out of date on this, but the $100k number that used to get
thrown around was for steel dies. Aluminum dies made with NC technology are
supposedly less expensive. And any single sprue, as opposed to a multi-part
die which has to open in several directions to eject the part, cannot be
close to the costs for a full body die. Can anyone supply modern numbers
for these various cases?

(Should I subscribe to the Tooling Costs for
Injection Molded Plastic Freight Cars List (TCIMPFCL)??)
Hey, now THAT sounds interesting. But I think I'd only want to join the
Steam Era TCIMPFCL.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history