Topics

Pacific Electric


Paul Doggett
 

Hi

The Pacific Electrics own cars had an unusual hand brake arrangement because of the tight curves. Foreign cars must have traveled over the PE lines with standard handbrake linkage how was this done?

Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿


radiodial868
 

Paul, now you are talking my early era and California traction focus!
In the teens, 20's and early 30's, industry was centralized in and around south & central Los Angeles. The tracks in LA were not designed to steam standards and contained many typical streetcar and interurban type curves as PE was built from many early small lines. Some of these served the early industries.
Freight loads kinda fell into 3 buckets:
Originating. LA was a major west coast manufacturing hub, so for outbound cars they used their own PE cars (Box, Stock, Flat & Gon)
Interline. In the noted era, much of the traffic was home road. Agricultural, stockcars, LCL, oil drilling, etc. Once again PE cars.
Destination. Shipping manuals flagged customers served by sharp curve trackage, much like those throughout the country where weight or ht/width restrictions existed. Shipping clerks were very knowledgeable back then. Solution was a PE car could be ordered from PE car Mgmt Dept and travel empty to shipper. This was common for loads originating on the nearby SP & AT&SF. Usually though, the inbound was shipped to one of the outlying freight houses and then trucked. You would think that the shipper could do that with PE, SP or AT&SF, but this was the highly regulated era, and if the customer was designated as PE, too bad. (we forget about the business side as it is not as interesting as operations)
In the 1930's industry started moving out and away from core LA, lines were upgraded, and so on, so the unique cars were no longer needed by WWII. But lucky for us, PE cars kept the outside linkage usually to retirement. Probably too expensive to modify and the operational interface was the same as a conventional car.

Rather simplified explanation and missing a lot of detail, but hope it helps. You thinking of knocking out some Sunshine, Westerfield or Owl Mountain PE freight cars?
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Paul Doggett
 

RJ

Thank you for your explanation I now understand it. No I am not going to build any PE cars as I have not got any kits although I do have two sunshine B50-14s to build but no PE decals I think the PE had some B50-14s.
Cheers 
Paul Doggett.    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 25 Jan 2021, at 16:25, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

Paul, now you are talking my early era and California traction focus!
In the teens, 20's and early 30's, industry was centralized in and around south & central Los Angeles. The tracks in LA were not designed to steam standards and contained many typical streetcar and interurban type curves as PE was built from many early small lines. Some of these served the early industries.
Freight loads kinda fell into 3 buckets:
Originating. LA was a major west coast manufacturing hub, so for outbound cars they used their own PE cars (Box, Stock, Flat & Gon)
Interline. In the noted era, much of the traffic was home road. Agricultural, stockcars, LCL, oil drilling, etc. Once again PE cars.
Destination. Shipping manuals flagged customers served by sharp curve trackage, much like those throughout the country where weight or ht/width restrictions existed. Shipping clerks were very knowledgeable back then. Solution was a PE car could be ordered from PE car Mgmt Dept and travel empty to shipper. This was common for loads originating on the nearby SP & AT&SF. Usually though, the inbound was shipped to one of the outlying freight houses and then trucked. You would think that the shipper could do that with PE, SP or AT&SF, but this was the highly regulated era, and if the customer was designated as PE, too bad. (we forget about the business side as it is not as interesting as operations)
In the 1930's industry started moving out and away from core LA, lines were upgraded, and so on, so the unique cars were no longer needed by WWII. But lucky for us, PE cars kept the outside linkage usually to retirement. Probably too expensive to modify and the operational interface was the same as a conventional car.

Rather simplified explanation and missing a lot of detail, but hope it helps. You thinking of knocking out some Sunshine, Westerfield or Owl Mountain PE freight cars?
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


radiodial868
 

Westerfield has PE S-40-5 stockcars and Owl Mountain flatcars come with PE decals and instructions.  I'm adding some into the SP fleet mix. 
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Tim O'Connor
 


I think you're extrapolating from an example, or a few, that don't represent the majority of PE freight cars.


On 1/25/2021 6:05 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io wrote:
Hi

The Pacific Electrics own cars had an unusual hand brake arrangement because of the tight curves. Foreign cars must have traveled over the PE lines with standard handbrake linkage how was this done?


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Paul Doggett
 

Tim 

Thank you.

Paul Doggett.


On 3 Feb 2021, at 16:22, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I think you're extrapolating from an example, or a few, that don't represent the majority of PE freight cars.


On 1/25/2021 6:05 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io wrote:
Hi

The Pacific Electrics own cars had an unusual hand brake arrangement because of the tight curves. Foreign cars must have traveled over the PE lines with standard handbrake linkage how was this done?


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Tim and Paul,

The PE's special brake rigging was designed so the cars could go around a 45-foot radius curve. Not all PE cars had this feature, but a surprising number did. In fact, there were at least 1,300 such cars, maybe as many as 1,900. It appears the brake rigging was applied to cars built in the 1920s, and I know of no evidence for its use on earlier cars, except possibly Hart ballast gondolas (see below).

PE 5900-5999, 6000-6099, and 20000-20599; G-50-9 GS gondolas delivered in 1923 and 1924 (800 cars). The feature seems to be invisible on these cars and may not be the same arrangement as on boxcars and flats.

PE 2614-3673; F-50-8 40' flat cars delivered in 1923 (150 cars).

PE 30000-30149; F-50-9 40' flat cars delivered in 1924 (150 cars). (Some of the Arrowhead tank cars converted from flat cars may have had the feature as well).

PE 2700-2899; B-40-13 40' SS boxcars delivered in 1924 (200 cars).

Possibly PE 10000-10599; B-40-14 SS boxcars delivered in 1924 (600 cars). 

In the rosters in Tony Thompson's epic books, all but the boxcars are called out with the special brake rigging. He mentions the B-40-13s as having this in a photo cutline (on a survivor at the OREM, but seem to recall they had several when I was last there in the 1975). I saw nothing about PE B-40-14s being so equipped. The PE-40-14 photos in his book are all taken from the wrong side or end to show this, as it can only be seen clearly in a photo that shows the truck on the corner closest to the brake wheel. Ira Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC V. 3 does not mention the special brake rigging at all, and the few photos there are too small and grainy to tell. Martin Loftin's instructions for his kits imply, but don't state clearly, that both classes had them on the PE. Maybe Tony would like to chime in on this

It also seems that PE 6200-6249, W-50-3 40' Hart ballast cars also had something similar to this feature, but that may have had more to do with the outside hung K-brake cylinders on the  heavily trussed underframes.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 11:34 AM Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Tim 

Thank you.

Paul Doggett.


On 3 Feb 2021, at 16:22, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I think you're extrapolating from an example, or a few, that don't represent the majority of PE freight cars.


On 1/25/2021 6:05 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io wrote:
Hi

The Pacific Electrics own cars had an unusual hand brake arrangement because of the tight curves. Foreign cars must have traveled over the PE lines with standard handbrake linkage how was this done?


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Paul Doggett
 

Garth 

Thank you very much. I need to spend more time reading my books 🙄🙄🙄

Paul Doggett.    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 3 Feb 2021, at 20:19, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Tim and Paul,

The PE's special brake rigging was designed so the cars could go around a 45-foot radius curve. Not all PE cars had this feature, but a surprising number did. In fact, there were at least 1,300 such cars, maybe as many as 1,900. It appears the brake rigging was applied to cars built in the 1920s, and I know of no evidence for its use on earlier cars, except possibly Hart ballast gondolas (see below).

PE 5900-5999, 6000-6099, and 20000-20599; G-50-9 GS gondolas delivered in 1923 and 1924 (800 cars). The feature seems to be invisible on these cars and may not be the same arrangement as on boxcars and flats.

PE 2614-3673; F-50-8 40' flat cars delivered in 1923 (150 cars).

PE 30000-30149; F-50-9 40' flat cars delivered in 1924 (150 cars). (Some of the Arrowhead tank cars converted from flat cars may have had the feature as well).

PE 2700-2899; B-40-13 40' SS boxcars delivered in 1924 (200 cars).

Possibly PE 10000-10599; B-40-14 SS boxcars delivered in 1924 (600 cars). 

In the rosters in Tony Thompson's epic books, all but the boxcars are called out with the special brake rigging. He mentions the B-40-13s as having this in a photo cutline (on a survivor at the OREM, but seem to recall they had several when I was last there in the 1975). I saw nothing about PE B-40-14s being so equipped. The PE-40-14 photos in his book are all taken from the wrong side or end to show this, as it can only be seen clearly in a photo that shows the truck on the corner closest to the brake wheel. Ira Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC V. 3 does not mention the special brake rigging at all, and the few photos there are too small and grainy to tell. Martin Loftin's instructions for his kits imply, but don't state clearly, that both classes had them on the PE. Maybe Tony would like to chime in on this

It also seems that PE 6200-6249, W-50-3 40' Hart ballast cars also had something similar to this feature, but that may have had more to do with the outside hung K-brake cylinders on the  heavily trussed underframes.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 11:34 AM Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Tim 

Thank you.

Paul Doggett.


On 3 Feb 2021, at 16:22, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I think you're extrapolating from an example, or a few, that don't represent the majority of PE freight cars.


On 1/25/2021 6:05 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io wrote:
Hi

The Pacific Electrics own cars had an unusual hand brake arrangement because of the tight curves. Foreign cars must have traveled over the PE lines with standard handbrake linkage how was this done?


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


SHAY STARK
 

Garth,

I have a photo of PE10237 taken in Centerville Utah on Bamberger Railroad with a packing date of 11-41 and BLT 6-24 B-50-14, that has the brake staff rigging located on the outside of the car. Unfortunately I don't have permission to post the photo. I also remember an article in Main Line Modeler in the 1990's that had a few photos of the PE cars along with the SP variants. I seem to remember at least one photo showing the brake staff rigging. Maybe someone has that article and could provide more information.

Shay Stark


Tim O'Connor
 


Garth, I wonder if that rigging (ref for the 1,300-1,900 #'s?) disappeared on cars that received AB brakes. Any idea?

Every single PE freight car photo I've seen is the right side (B-end to the left) or is from the A-end. :-P


On 2/3/2021 3:19 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Tim and Paul,

The PE's special brake rigging was designed so the cars could go around a 45-foot radius curve. Not all PE cars had this feature, but a surprising number did. In fact, there were at least 1,300 such cars, maybe as many as 1,900. It appears the brake rigging was applied to cars built in the 1920s, and I know of no evidence for its use on earlier cars, except possibly Hart ballast gondolas (see below).

PE 5900-5999, 6000-6099, and 20000-20599; G-50-9 GS gondolas delivered in 1923 and 1924 (800 cars). The feature seems to be invisible on these cars and may not be the same arrangement as on boxcars and flats.

PE 2614-3673; F-50-8 40' flat cars delivered in 1923 (150 cars).

PE 30000-30149; F-50-9 40' flat cars delivered in 1924 (150 cars). (Some of the Arrowhead tank cars converted from flat cars may have had the feature as well).

PE 2700-2899; B-40-13 40' SS boxcars delivered in 1924 (200 cars).

Possibly PE 10000-10599; B-40-14 SS boxcars delivered in 1924 (600 cars). 

In the rosters in Tony Thompson's epic books, all but the boxcars are called out with the special brake rigging. He mentions the B-40-13s as having this in a photo cutline (on a survivor at the OREM, but seem to recall they had several when I was last there in the 1975). I saw nothing about PE B-40-14s being so equipped. The PE-40-14 photos in his book are all taken from the wrong side or end to show this, as it can only be seen clearly in a photo that shows the truck on the corner closest to the brake wheel. Ira Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC V. 3 does not mention the special brake rigging at all, and the few photos there are too small and grainy to tell. Martin Loftin's instructions for his kits imply, but don't state clearly, that both classes had them on the PE. Maybe Tony would like to chime in on this

It also seems that PE 6200-6249, W-50-3 40' Hart ballast cars also had something similar to this feature, but that may have had more to do with the outside hung K-brake cylinders on the  heavily trussed underframes.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


radiodial868
 

I was really into the PE in the early 1970's (having been born in SoCal), Let me see if I can find my ETT from the 1930's that contained the restrictions. I also purchased photos form the Huntington and couple of commercial sellers back then and you can see how sharp the curves were.  Wish I could share them, but it'll bring out the ire of the Fair Use dudes again.
Garth, I recall one of the photos showed a PE stockcar (RH side unfortunately) and you can't see the number. Probably an S-40-4. This was still the era of stock pens downtown. Any info on those?
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Tim,

Interesting question. Tony would be the one to comment on that. Most of the surviving PE cars were transferred to the SP circa 1951-1952, and any that were worthy of continued service would have needed AB brakes. The examples that survive were PE MW service, and were still around in the 1960s before being preserved. AFAIK, all that are preserved are at the OREM. My photos from circa 1975 are attached.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:30 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Garth, I wonder if that rigging (ref for the 1,300-1,900 #'s?) disappeared on cars that received AB brakes. Any idea?

Every single PE freight car photo I've seen is the right side (B-end to the left) or is from the A-end. :-P


On 2/3/2021 3:19 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Tim and Paul,

The PE's special brake rigging was designed so the cars could go around a 45-foot radius curve. Not all PE cars had this feature, but a surprising number did. In fact, there were at least 1,300 such cars, maybe as many as 1,900. It appears the brake rigging was applied to cars built in the 1920s, and I know of no evidence for its use on earlier cars, except possibly Hart ballast gondolas (see below).

PE 5900-5999, 6000-6099, and 20000-20599; G-50-9 GS gondolas delivered in 1923 and 1924 (800 cars). The feature seems to be invisible on these cars and may not be the same arrangement as on boxcars and flats.

PE 2614-3673; F-50-8 40' flat cars delivered in 1923 (150 cars).

PE 30000-30149; F-50-9 40' flat cars delivered in 1924 (150 cars). (Some of the Arrowhead tank cars converted from flat cars may have had the feature as well).

PE 2700-2899; B-40-13 40' SS boxcars delivered in 1924 (200 cars).

Possibly PE 10000-10599; B-40-14 SS boxcars delivered in 1924 (600 cars). 

In the rosters in Tony Thompson's epic books, all but the boxcars are called out with the special brake rigging. He mentions the B-40-13s as having this in a photo cutline (on a survivor at the OREM, but seem to recall they had several when I was last there in the 1975). I saw nothing about PE B-40-14s being so equipped. The PE-40-14 photos in his book are all taken from the wrong side or end to show this, as it can only be seen clearly in a photo that shows the truck on the corner closest to the brake wheel. Ira Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC V. 3 does not mention the special brake rigging at all, and the few photos there are too small and grainy to tell. Martin Loftin's instructions for his kits imply, but don't state clearly, that both classes had them on the PE. Maybe Tony would like to chime in on this

It also seems that PE 6200-6249, W-50-3 40' Hart ballast cars also had something similar to this feature, but that may have had more to do with the outside hung K-brake cylinders on the  heavily trussed underframes.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor
 

Garth

Excellent photos thank you. I have only a photo of 00119 from the OTHER side ! :-D

And 00119 has AB brakes! So evidently this problem was entirely about the hand
brake rods, and nothing else. ;-)


On 2/4/2021 11:55 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Tim,

Interesting question. Tony would be the one to comment on that. Most of the surviving PE cars were transferred to the SP circa 1951-1952, and any that were worthy of continued service would have needed AB brakes. The examples that survive were PE MW service, and were still around in the 1960s before being preserved. AFAIK, all that are preserved are at the OREM. My photos from circa 1975 are attached.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:30 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Garth, I wonder if that rigging (ref for the 1,300-1,900 #'s?) disappeared on cars that received AB brakes. Any idea?

Every single PE freight car photo I've seen is the right side (B-end to the left) or is from the A-end. :-P



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

RJ,

I found no indication in Tony's book that the stock cars had the tight-curve brakes. There were only 10 cars, PE 8500-8509. These were class S-40-4 built in 1914, which is about 10 years before the special application on the bulk of new PE cars. The cars went to the SP in 1940. Also consider that these cars were 37', and might not have needed the special brake arrangement, or they might have been in pretty restricted service to customers that didn't have tight curves. The only photo I've ever seen of these is the builders photo in Tony's series (V.1) on page 264. It is from the "wrong" corner, and Tony's roster doesn't call out any special equipment. The general arrangement diagram is in Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC, V.3 page 783, but no brake details are given.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:30 AM radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:
I was really into the PE in the early 1970's (having been born in SoCal), Let me see if I can find my ETT from the 1930's that contained the restrictions. I also purchased photos form the Huntington and couple of commercial sellers back then and you can see how sharp the curves were.  Wish I could share them, but it'll bring out the ire of the Fair Use dudes again.
Garth, I recall one of the photos showed a PE stockcar (RH side unfortunately) and you can't see the number. Probably an S-40-4. This was still the era of stock pens downtown. Any info on those?
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Tim,

Then usual rodding to the hand brake must have interfered with truck swing where it passed over the B-end truck.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 12:05 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Garth

Excellent photos thank you. I have only a photo of 00119 from the OTHER side ! :-D

And 00119 has AB brakes! So evidently this problem was entirely about the hand
brake rods, and nothing else. ;-)


On 2/4/2021 11:55 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Tim,

Interesting question. Tony would be the one to comment on that. Most of the surviving PE cars were transferred to the SP circa 1951-1952, and any that were worthy of continued service would have needed AB brakes. The examples that survive were PE MW service, and were still around in the 1960s before being preserved. AFAIK, all that are preserved are at the OREM. My photos from circa 1975 are attached.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 11:30 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Garth, I wonder if that rigging (ref for the 1,300-1,900 #'s?) disappeared on cars that received AB brakes. Any idea?

Every single PE freight car photo I've seen is the right side (B-end to the left) or is from the A-end. :-P



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor
 


does not appear to have any special equipment


On 2/4/2021 12:09 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
RJ,

I found no indication in Tony's book that the stock cars had the tight-curve brakes. There were only 10 cars, PE 8500-8509. These were class S-40-4 built in 1914, which is about 10 years before the special application on the bulk of new PE cars. The cars went to the SP in 1940. Also consider that these cars were 37', and might not have needed the special brake arrangement, or they might have been in pretty restricted service to customers that didn't have tight curves. The only photo I've ever seen of these is the builders photo in Tony's series (V.1) on page 264. It is from the "wrong" corner, and Tony's roster doesn't call out any special equipment. The general arrangement diagram is in Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC, V.3 page 783, but no brake details are given.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


mel perry
 

interesting, that car has two different
trucks, is it on a scrap line?
mel perry


Bruce Smith
 

Mel,

1) Why would two different trucks imply a scrap line? While not common, it occurred.

2) Um, the trucks on PE 8501 sure both look like Andrews trucks to me.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Feb 4, 2021, at 2:51 PM, mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:

interesting, that car has two different
trucks, is it on a scrap line?
mel perry


mel perry
 

bruce;
1) simple, i've never seen it in service,
only on dead lines, not to say it didn't
happen, i just haven't seen it

2)PE8501?, i'm teferencing PE00119,
which clearly a t-section on the left
and a bettendorf on the right
;-)
mel perry


On Thu, Feb 4, 2021, 1:04 PM Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Mel,

1) Why would two different trucks imply a scrap line? While not common, it occurred.

2) Um, the trucks on PE 8501 sure both look like Andrews trucks to me.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Feb 4, 2021, at 2:51 PM, mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:

interesting, that car has two different
trucks, is it on a scrap line?
mel perry


Tim O'Connor
 


All copyrights expire eventually. Including photographs. There are a lot of factors - how old was the
photographer and (if) when did they die? Was the photo ever published? Where did you get the photo?
A nearly 80 year old photo of a freight car... not much chance of a lawsuit. Just sayin'. And to win, the
suit would have to demonstrate actual damage to the copyright holder (diminishment of residual economic
value of the photo or publication).


On 2/3/2021 6:54 PM, SHAY STARK wrote:
Garth,

I have a photo of PE10237 taken in Centerville Utah on Bamberger Railroad with a packing date of 11-41 and BLT 6-24 B-50-14, that has the brake staff rigging located on the outside of the car. Unfortunately I don't have permission to post the photo. I also remember an article in Main Line Modeler in the 1990's that had a few photos of the PE cars along with the SP variants. I seem to remember at least one photo showing the brake staff rigging. Maybe someone has that article and could provide more information.

Shay Stark

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts