Topics

PFE wood ice reefer underframes


Dick Harley
 

In case anyone missed the link to my SmugMug site in Steve Hile's thread about correcting PFE brake gear placement, I have put a lot of photos, drawings, summaries and explanations in captions in this SmugMug gallery:
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/PFETrainPhotos/PFE-Wood-Ice-Reefers/Bettendorf-vs-Built-Up

The most interesting discovery was that the HO scale Tichy R-40-4 RR Design underframe is really only correct for the WP reefers built by ACF as R-30-13 clones.  Apparently Bill Gould used a WP car when he made his tooling.
The Terry Wegmann tooling for the RR Design underframe is correct for the R-30-13 and all the PFE rebuilds which have an RR Design underframe.

If you have any corrections to what's there, please contact me off-list.

Enjoy,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


radiodial868
 

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 09:30 AM, Dick Harley wrote:
Terry Wegmann tooling for the RR Design
Dick, You've added a term I am not familiar with and haven't found on your great website (which I love).
"RR Design"  What underframe is this in reference to?
 Thx,
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Tony Thompson
 

That’s what PFE called the “built-up” underframe of R-30-13 and friends.
Tony Thompson 


On Aug 1, 2020, at 8:43 AM, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 09:30 AM, Dick Harley wrote:
Terry Wegmann tooling for the RR Design
Dick, You've added a term I am not familiar with and haven't found on your great website (which I love).
"RR Design"  What underframe is this in reference to?
 Thx,
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Ken Adams
 

Is there a readily available correct HO plastic alternative to the Tichy underframe? IM says it no longer sells parts. Another 3 D printed part in need of development?
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek


Brian Carlson
 

On Aug 1, 2020, at 1:34 PM, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:

Is there a readily available correct HO plastic alternative to the Tichy underframe? I



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mel perry
 

if you have a copy of the 5/86 MM, 
there's a short article re the rr design,
basically it was a replacement for the
bettendorf frame  whose center sill
was prone to cracking
;-)


On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 8:43 AM radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 09:30 AM, Dick Harley wrote:
Terry Wegmann tooling for the RR Design
Dick, You've added a term I am not familiar with and haven't found on your great website (which I love).
"RR Design"  What underframe is this in reference to?
 Thx,
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Tony Thompson
 

Not really. The Bettendorf people couldn’t produce underframes fast enough. Under 30-ton reefers, the Bettendorf frame was fine.
Tony Thompson 


On Aug 1, 2020, at 1:13 PM, mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:


if you have a copy of the 5/86 MM, 
there's a short article re the rr design,
basically it was a replacement for the
bettendorf frame  whose center sill
was prone to cracking
;-)


On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 8:43 AM radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 09:30 AM, Dick Harley wrote:
Terry Wegmann tooling for the RR Design
Dick, You've added a term I am not familiar with and haven't found on your great website (which I love).
"RR Design"  What underframe is this in reference to?
 Thx,
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Dick Harley
 


Tony knows more than I do, but the RR Design did not "replace" the 30-ton Bettendorf underframes on PFE reefers.  They were a means to increase the number of cars PFE could get, without being limited by Bettendorf.  And old Bettendorf underframes were used in PFE rebuilds up through the R-30-21 class in the mid-1940s.

I use the terms "RR Design" and "Built-Up" interchangeably for those underframes.  Not sure I have a preference.  Many diagrams use both.
Here is a summary about them:
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/PFETrainPhotos/PFE-Wood-Ice-Reefers/Bettendorf-vs-Built-Up/i-drRrvqG/A
I'll soon announce here more info on PFE wood reefer rebuilds on my SmugMug site.

If there was a significant problem with cracking of Bettendorf underframes on PFE reefers, that's news to me. 


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


Tony Thompson
 

I agree with Dick. Bettendorf underframes were not replaced, just the supply of frames supplemented with RR Design.
Tony Thompson 


On Aug 1, 2020, at 2:33 PM, Dick Harley via groups.io <dick.harley4up@...> wrote:


Tony knows more than I do, but the RR Design did not "replace" the 30-ton Bettendorf underframes on PFE reefers.  They were a means to increase the number of cars PFE could get, without being limited by Bettendorf.  And old Bettendorf underframes were used in PFE rebuilds up through the R-30-21 class in the mid-1940s.

I use the terms "RR Design" and "Built-Up" interchangeably for those underframes.  Not sure I have a preference.  Many diagrams use both.
Here is a summary about them:
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/PFETrainPhotos/PFE-Wood-Ice-Reefers/Bettendorf-vs-Built-Up/i-drRrvqG/A
I'll soon announce here more info on PFE wood reefer rebuilds on my SmugMug site.

If there was a significant problem with cracking of Bettendorf underframes on PFE reefers, that's news to me. 


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


radiodial868
 

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 06:50 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
I agree with Dick. Bettendorf underframes were not replaced, just the supply of frames supplemented with RR Design.
Tony Thompson 
Tony, to that end, I've been meaning to ask. For the WP reefers, is there an AFE list or something that reflects which of the 2000 AC&F cars got Bettendorf and which got Built-up? The NPRHS has such a list for the NP Reefers, and it helped me get the right car numbers to match the correct versions.
 Thx,
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Dick Harley
 


AFAIK, the current thinking is that all the WP reefers had Built-Up underframes.  I do not know of, and have not heard even rumors of, any photo of a WP reefer with a Bettendorf underframe.

My recollection is that some of the Car Cards for the WP reefers were marked R-30-12 (crossed out) which would indicate a Bettendorf underframe.  But my theory is that PFE just had a pile of those pre-marked Car Cards sitting around when the WP reefer Car Cards were initiated, and some of those cards were used for the WP cars.  That could easily be the source of the idea that some WP reefers had Bettendorf underframes.  The Car Card itself does not specify the type of underframe.  

It's been ages since I looked at WP reefer Car Cards at CSRM, and there aren't many.  One sure fire way to test that theory would be to find a photo of a car for which we have a Car Card indicating a Bettendorf underframe.

But again, I know of no photo of a WP reefer with a Bettendorf underframe.
If anyone has one, please share it.

The WP reefers were not included in the PFE Freight Car Diagrams (which list underframe), presumably because PFE did not own the cars.
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/PFE-FRT-DATA/PFE-1951-Diagram-Book/
Don't know if anyone has a WP diagram for those cars that might shed some light.


Hope that helps,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA



Dick Harley
 


I should have added that since the WP reefers have a unique version of the Built-Up underframe for reefers, with their brake cylinder and brake levers placement, I think it is even more likely that the ACF-built WP reefers all had the same type underframe. 


Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Dick,

Contact me at mallardlodge1000_AT_gmail.com . I might be able to help with a diagram, but I want to discuss this off-list.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 3:56 PM Dick Harley via groups.io <dick.harley4up=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

AFAIK, the current thinking is that all the WP reefers had Built-Up underframes.  I do not know of, and have not heard even rumors of, any photo of a WP reefer with a Bettendorf underframe.

My recollection is that some of the Car Cards for the WP reefers were marked R-30-12 (crossed out) which would indicate a Bettendorf underframe.  But my theory is that PFE just had a pile of those pre-marked Car Cards sitting around when the WP reefer Car Cards were initiated, and some of those cards were used for the WP cars.  That could easily be the source of the idea that some WP reefers had Bettendorf underframes.  The Car Card itself does not specify the type of underframe.  

It's been ages since I looked at WP reefer Car Cards at CSRM, and there aren't many.  One sure fire way to test that theory would be to find a photo of a car for which we have a Car Card indicating a Bettendorf underframe.

But again, I know of no photo of a WP reefer with a Bettendorf underframe.
If anyone has one, please share it.

The WP reefers were not included in the PFE Freight Car Diagrams (which list underframe), presumably because PFE did not own the cars.
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/PFE-FRT-DATA/PFE-1951-Diagram-Book/
Don't know if anyone has a WP diagram for those cars that might shed some light.


Hope that helps,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA



Tony Thompson
 

Tony, to that end, I've been meaning to ask. For the WP reefers, is there an AFE list or something that reflects which of the 2000 AC&F cars got Bettendorf and which got Built-up? The NPRHS has such a list for the NP Reefers, and it helped me get the right car numbers to match the correct versions.
 

      No, no documentation. I inferred from the dates that about 200 of the WP cars differed from all the others and had Bettendorf, but I have no proof.

Tony Thompson




WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Hopefully not to oversimplify but rather to establish a practical means of accurately modeling the PFE wood refer fleetcan we establish that :

1)  The Tichey underframe is correct for the WP. refers.

2)   Terry Wegmann's underframe is correct for all other PFE rood refers that did not have Bettendorf frsmes.

3)  Therefore is the Red Caboose  underframe corrrct for cars with the Bettendorf  undeframes.

Too simple?

Bill Pardie


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Bill,

According to Richard Hendrickson's article in the April 1997 RMJ, the Tichy underframe is not 100% correct for converting the Red Caboose R-30-11/12 cars to R-30-13s. It is a somewhat beefier 40-ton underframe that is correct for the R-40-4 class, which is what Tichy's model is supposed to represent. He did allow it was close enough in HO to pass inspection. There was nothing in his article about brake system differences.

I rebuilt four Red Caboose R-39-11/12s with the Tichy underframe, including one WP/PFE (none of which should have the R-30-11/12 underframes) and the one R-40-6 egg car I could identify as being originally an R-30-13. I was satisfied with the results.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:19 AM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:
Hopefully not to oversimplify but rather to establish a practical means of accurately modeling the PFE wood refer fleetcan we establish that :

1)  The Tichey underframe is correct for the WP. refers.

2)   Terry Wegmann's underframe is correct for all other PFE rood refers that did not have Bettendorf frsmes.

3)  Therefore is the Red Caboose  underframe corrrct for cars with the Bettendorf  undeframes.

Too simple?

Bill Pardie


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



WILLIAM PARDIE
 

As a footnote to my earlier post, Andy Carlson offered revised crossmembers for the Red Caboose underframe.  Terry Wegman also included these in his R-30-16 conversion kit 

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...>
Date: 8/2/20 9:18 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE wood ice reefer underframes

Hopefully not to oversimplify but rather to establish a practical means of accurately modeling the PFE wood refer fleetcan we establish that :

1)  The Tichey underframe is correct for the WP. refers.

2)   Terry Wegmann's underframe is correct for all other PFE rood refers that did not have Bettendorf frsmes.

3)  Therefore is the Red Caboose  underframe corrrct for cars with the Bettendorf  undeframes.

Too simple?

Bill Pardie


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



WILLIAM PARDIE
 

I see that Resin Car Works is shipping the new Western Pacific PFE kits.  I guess we will have to look closely at the underframes now that w)e have sortp of0 sorted them out.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



Eric Hansmann
 

Sad to say, but it’s the past tense now. The Resin Car Works Kit 16.0 PFE WP reefers are now out of production. 

The currently available kits are featured on this web page. 

More news will be coming soon. 


Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy

On Aug 6, 2020, at 5:17 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:

I see that Resin Car Works is shipping the new Western Pacific PFE kits.  I guess we will have to look closely at the underframes now that w)e have sortp of0 sorted them out.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



Steve Summers
 

Not sure if it is correct for your cars, but Westerfield makes a Bettendorf fish belly single I beam underframe for Milwaukee cars, kit 12053.  If it is correct perhaps a call to Andrew Dahm at Westerfield Might yield a couple of underframes.  They are for 43’ boxcars which may be too long for the reefers.  I simply copied it in styrene for a second model.  Picture of the underframe without the details.

On Aug 1, 2020, at 1:35 PM, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:

Is there a readily available correct HO plastic alternative to the Tichy underframe? IM says it no longer sells parts. Another 3 D printed part in need of development?
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek