Topics

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

gary laakso
 

Those all appear to be truss rod flat cars and that suggests the purported date is way off.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 12:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

Not all, but certainly most. At least one non-truss rod flat on the far end. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Jun 17, 2020, at 2:55 PM, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:



Those all appear to be truss rod flat cars and that suggests the purported date is way off.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 12:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

al_brown03
 

Are those arch-bar trucks on the near car?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Eric Hansmann
 

The first car has a 4-99 built date. I can’t find a readable weigh date stencil.

 

All but one flat car here have truss rods.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 2:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Those all appear to be truss rod flat cars and that suggests the purported date is way off.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 12:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Edward
 

Likely a Nash shipment of the late 1920's - early 1930's.
It and Studebaker were fairly popular makes back then, competing with lower and middle makes of the time.
Both companies had a sizeable export business until the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act became law.

The merger with Hudson, a more up-market make at that time, was still a few decades away.
Did anyone notice the rows of canted poles in the background?
Could that be the North Shore line, if those boxed autos (likely built as right hand drive as well), were coming from the Nash factory in Kenosha?

Ed Bommer

mel perry
 

i think who ever categorized or archived
this photo, made a mistake with the date,
wooden flatcar with truss rods and arch
bar trucks, not lkely in the 1950's, also i
doubt AMC existed as an entity  in 1899?
and then there's the photo itself, looks
considerably older than the "50's"
just a thought
mel perry


On Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:38 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with


Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Dave Parker
 

CStPM&O 12000-12311 series flat cars, odd nos. only, CAPY = 70,000 lbs.

7 left in my 1930 ORER
0 in my 1935
0 in my 1938

Unfortunately flat-car lettering was so minimal it doesn't provide many clues as to pre- or post-1927 ARA lettering.  But clearly "1950s" is not really close.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Dennis Storzek
 

Why does everyone always go off on the dates the interns at these university libraries enter? They know absolutely nothing about railroads, or cars, or ships... they are just told to enter all the information found on the photo, or associated with the photo, such as it was in a box marked "1950." It really is better that they preserve the info; maybe 1950 is a significant date for the AMC organization, maybe it could be used to tell what predecessor company the photo came from. It's up the end user, who is supposedly an expert, to establish the true date. It's certainly better than just making something up, which is what some of the local historical societies seem to do.

Dennis Storzek

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Bob and List Members,
 
I think the date on this has already been called into question by another list member.
 
I can see that the build date on the nearest flat is 4-99, which I take to be April 1899. It is a 35 ton car.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 3:38 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Eric Hansmann
 

While the photo caption notes AMC companies, the boxes are stenciled for B&W. What vehicle company was that? Determining this company should pin point a photo reference year.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 7:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Hi Bob and List Members,

 

I think the date on this has already been called into question by another list member.

 

I can see that the build date on the nearest flat is 4-99, which I take to be April 1899. It is a 35 ton car.

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 3:38 PM

Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Eric,
 
Can’t help wondering whether “B&W” has more do with the cargo’s destination than with the manufacturer, especially with “Auckland,” presumably New Zealand.
 
Just a thought.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Eric Hansmann
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 11:05 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars
 

While the photo caption notes AMC companies, the boxes are stenciled for B&W. What vehicle company was that? Determining this company should pin point a photo reference year.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 7:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Hi Bob and List Members,

 

I think the date on this has already been called into question by another list member.

 

I can see that the build date on the nearest flat is 4-99, which I take to be April 1899. It is a 35 ton car.

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Chaparro via groups.io

To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io

Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 3:38 PM

Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Eric Hansmann
 

Claus,

 

I see three different cities on the first three boxes. We have also seen other older images over the years where crates are stenciled with a manufacturer name. Crates labeled Case and Essex come to mind. A 1923 image on the Historic Lackawanna collection also shows tarps stenciled with the Buick name.

If these loads are from the Kenosha area, the Winther Motor Company is another possible manufacturer. This article mentions a 500 auto shipment to Australia in 1917.
https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Article/CS381

 

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ralph W. Brown
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 10:31 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Hi Eric,

 

Can’t help wondering whether “B&W” has more do with the cargo’s destination than with the manufacturer, especially with “Auckland,” presumably New Zealand.

 

Just a thought.

 

Pax,

 

 

Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com

 

From: Eric Hansmann

Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 11:05 AM

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

While the photo caption notes AMC companies, the boxes are stenciled for B&W. What vehicle company was that? Determining this company should pin point a photo reference year.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 7:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Hi Bob and List Members,

 

I think the date on this has already been called into question by another list member.

 

I can see that the build date on the nearest flat is 4-99, which I take to be April 1899. It is a 35 ton car.

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Chaparro via groups.io

Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 3:38 PM

Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

A circa early 1950s photo from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries:

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A7KI7ODJT7DHJ68R

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Description: "Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination. In 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation joined with Hudson Motor Car Company to create the American Motors Corporation."

Of course, these are flatcars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Joseph Melhorn
 

The first sentence under the picture reads: “Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination.”

The first crate is labeled Auckland, NZ, the third one looks like Masterton, also NZ and the second looks like Sydney, Aus.

Joe Melhorn

Sahuarita, AZ

 

Eric Hansmann
 

AMC wasn’t a company until 1954. The lead flat car is of a series that disappeared from the ORER in 1930. The photo might be from the AMC archives. 

But why are the crates stenciled B&W and not NASH?


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jun 18, 2020, at 5:57 PM, Joseph Melhorn <toyman@...> wrote:

The first sentence under the picture reads: “Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination.”

The first crate is labeled Auckland, NZ, the third one looks like Masterton, also NZ and the second looks like Sydney, Aus.

Joe Melhorn

Sahuarita, AZ

 

Richard Townsend
 

Could B&W be the receiving company?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2020 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

AMC wasn’t a company until 1954. The lead flat car is of a series that disappeared from the ORER in 1930. The photo might be from the AMC archives. 

But why are the crates stenciled B&W and not NASH?


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jun 18, 2020, at 5:57 PM, Joseph Melhorn <toyman@...> wrote:

The first sentence under the picture reads: “Boxcars loaded with Nash or AMC cars to be shipped by railroad, ending up in Australia and New Zealand. Each boxcar is stamped with its destination.”
The first crate is labeled Auckland, NZ, the third one looks like Masterton, also NZ and the second looks like Sydney, Aus.
Joe Melhorn
Sahuarita, AZ
 

Rupert Gamlen
 

As New Zealand’s population was so small, it did not have its own vehicle manufacturers, so vehicle were either shipped here complete or partially disassembled, crated, transported by rail and then shipped here for reassembly. Later, some parts were manufactured within NZ and completely knocked down cars (“CKD’s”), minus those parts which were to be locally sourced, were imported.

“B&W” and “Auckland” would have been the shipping marks, which would have appeared on the bill of lading and on the ship’s manifest to identify the intended recipient. I’ve looked on-line but can’t find a local company with those initials to help with dating the photo.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Friday, 19 June 2020 12:35 pm
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

 

Could B&W be the receiving company?

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

_._,_._,_

David North
 

This might be a red herring, but Bennett & Woods were the Australian distributor for Kelvinator in the early part of the 20th Century.

They were a leading company in the motor trade here in Australia, but more spare parts than new cars.

Wasn’t Kelvinator part of the Nash brand?

Coincidently, B&W were the Australian distributor for Harley Davison from 1915 and BSA motorbikes.

(Nothing to do with Nash, just something I found while researching around this photo)

 

I must admit, I thought the boxes looked a little small for cars.

 

Rupert, do you know who the NZ distributors were for Kelvinator before Fisher & Paykell took the line on the late 30s?

I wonder if Bennett & Woods had an NZ Division?

 

Again, I may be way off on this.

Cheers

Dave North

Sydney

Australia

Dave Parker
 

If you look at the Wiki pages for both Nash and Hudson/Essex, there is quite a bit of information about exports to both Oz and NZ.  One thing that caught my eye was this:

"As was the practice for all car brands during the early 20th Century, the chassis and engines were imported and the bodies were locally built by Australian coach builders".

So, at least in some instances, not only were the cars "knocked down" for shipping, but were also comprised of only the chassis, motor, and running gear.  I guess you wouldn't need a very big crate for that.

Back to the freight cars:  given the build date, the wooden frame components, and the vanishingly small numbers of these cars by 1930 (including the second C&NW car), I would be surprised if this photo dates much past 1925.  Best guess is that it post-dates the war, so that narrows the window to ~7 years , +/-.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Dennis Storzek
 

Coming in on this late. I just finally panned all the way to the far end of the string of cars, and adjacent to the track is a fire hose house, and interestingly, the hydrant identification number is stenciled in a diamond that mirrors the diamonds surrounding the B&W stenciled on the boxes.

I also note the spur is right up against the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee (maybe still the Chicago & Milwaukee Electric Ry. at that time) main line; I can see two overhead wires in the background. That certainly proves this is Kenosha.

Dennis Storzek