Topics

Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

A 1933 photo from the UCLA Library:

https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.losAngelesDailyNews%3A1054

This photo can be enlarges quite a bit. Photo editing software brings out the details.

Description: "Wreckage of train tracks and Southern Pacific box cars [sic] after record-breaking rainfall in southern California. December 31, 1933."

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

The nearest reefer appears to be PFE 9544. That would make it an R-30-5 reefer, one of 3,021 cars (series 7101-10121) built in 1909-1911 by Pullman.

Notice this car has a single grab iron on the near end side. With regard to safety appliances, interchange rules required an additional grab iron on house cars, hopper cars, and high side gondola cars built new or rebuilt on or after August 1, 1933.

Notice how some of the siding has been stripped from the sides of the cars.

Additional photo:

https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.losAngelesDailyNews%3A1053

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hi Bob,

     It is not the fact that some of the siding has come ff of these PFE reefers that I notice so much as

the way it has come off. If you look at both photos the cars all show a 4 and 4 panel pattern on either

side of the doors in the same places n the car sides even if the number of individual boards lost varies.

This leads me to wonder just how these cars were originally constructed or “assembled”. Could it be

that panels of siding were assembled as units before actually being applied to the sides of the cars?

In the interest of saving time during construction this would make some sense as the method is often

found in home construction today wherein a house is constructed of prebuilt panels that are assembled

on site. If so it is the earliest example of this mass-production method I have seen for wood construction.

Perhaps Tony Thompson, as our resident PFE man, has some insight on this.

 

Cordially, Don Valentine

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:36 PM, Donald B. Valentine wrote:

If you look at both photos the cars all show a 4 and 4 panel pattern on either

side of the doors in the same places n the car sides even if the number of individual boards lost varies.

This leads me to wonder just how these cars were originally constructed or “assembled”. Could it be

that panels of siding were assembled as units before actually being applied to the sides of the cars?

I noticed that too, Don, the missing siding seems to be at the car post locations. Since the siding is a single layer of T&G, I don't see any way to blame it on panels. Here is what I think happened. The siding is nailed to girths; horizontal wood rails that are fitted between the posts. That means it's likely a lot of nails in those strips of siding adjacent to the posts only caught the end of the girth, so those boards were not attached quite as solidly as the strips further from the posts. When subjected to the scouring action of the flood waters, those were the first boards to let go. It's also possible that the proximity of the post put more pressure on those siding boards as the current tried to force it's way between. Whatever the reason it is clearly related to the position of the car posts, and it was consistent along the length of both cars.

Dennis Storzek

Bruce Smith
 

Dennis, Don,

I had an alternative explanation that is purely speculative, as yours are. Perhaps these boards have been removed by workers as part of the salvage operation. That could either be to assess the condition of the insulation, or to open up the sides to allow it to dry, without too severely damaging the integrity of the sides. Uniform locations would explain the regularity 😉

I believe that boards are missing in what appears to be multiples of 2 because of the use of V center V siding that has the appearance of 2 boards for every actual board.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 4:09 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers
 
On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:36 PM, Donald B. Valentine wrote:

If you look at both photos the cars all show a 4 and 4 panel pattern on either

side of the doors in the same places n the car sides even if the number of individual boards lost varies.

This leads me to wonder just how these cars were originally constructed or “assembled”. Could it be

that panels of siding were assembled as units before actually being applied to the sides of the cars?

I noticed that too, Don, the missing siding seems to be at the car post locations. Since the siding is a single layer of T&G, I don't see any way to blame it on panels. Here is what I think happened. The siding is nailed to girths; horizontal wood rails that are fitted between the posts. That means it's likely a lot of nails in those strips of siding adjacent to the posts only caught the end of the girth, so those boards were not attached quite as solidly as the strips further from the posts. When subjected to the scouring action of the flood waters, those were the first boards to let go. It's also possible that the proximity of the post put more pressure on those siding boards as the current tried to force it's way between. Whatever the reason it is clearly related to the position of the car posts, and it was consistent along the length of both cars.

Dennis Storzek

Tony Thompson
 

Don Valentine wrote:

Perhaps Tony Thompson, as our resident PFE man, has some insight on this.

  Looking at the photos I have from PFE shop work, I see no sign of any panels being assembled. Several photos clearly show individual boards (grooved to look like two boards) being installed.

Tony Thompson



Tim O'Connor
 

Tony or anyone --

A question - Did you notice the 'diagonal' brace between the draft gear and the floor stringer? On models
these diagonals are always flat against the floor. But this one looks like it goes from the floor (and stringer)
to the end sill - not flush against the floor.

Tim O'Connor


On 7/4/2020 11:54 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io wrote:

Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

A 1933 photo from the UCLA Library:

https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.losAngelesDailyNews%3A1054

This photo can be enlarges quite a bit. Photo editing software brings out the details.

Description: "Wreckage of train tracks and Southern Pacific box cars [sic] after record-breaking rainfall in southern California. December 31, 1933."

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

The nearest reefer appears to be PFE 9544. That would make it an R-30-5 reefer, one of 3,021 cars (series 7101-10121) built in 1909-1911 by Pullman.

Notice this car has a single grab iron on the near end side. With regard to safety appliances, interchange rules required an additional grab iron on house cars, hopper cars, and high side gondola cars built new or rebuilt on or after August 1, 1933.

Notice how some of the siding has been stripped from the sides of the cars.

Additional photo:

https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.losAngelesDailyNews%3A1053

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Well, I agree that it’s not tight to the floor above it, but . . . it’s also appearing to be bent, and on a wrecked car, I’d be cautious about generalizing from the condition of this particular diagonal to say that all diagonals on PFE reefers are the same.  Once bent, that channel has lost a good bit of its integrity.

 

What surprises me about this shot is that it’s much more common for diagonals to the end of the car to run from the middle of the bolster to the corner of the car, essentially at 90 degrees to this configuration.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 8:10 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

 

Tony or anyone --

A question - Did you notice the 'diagonal' brace between the draft gear and the floor stringer? On models
these diagonals are always flat against the floor. But this one looks like it goes from the floor (and stringer)
to the end sill - not flush against the floor.

Tim O'Connor


On 7/4/2020 11:54 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io wrote:

Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

A 1933 photo from the UCLA Library:

https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.losAngelesDailyNews%3A1054

This photo can be enlarges quite a bit. Photo editing software brings out the details.

Description: "Wreckage of train tracks and Southern Pacific box cars [sic] after record-breaking rainfall in southern California. December 31, 1933."

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

The nearest reefer appears to be PFE 9544. That would make it an R-30-5 reefer, one of 3,021 cars (series 7101-10121) built in 1909-1911 by Pullman.

Notice this car has a single grab iron on the near end side. With regard to safety appliances, interchange rules required an additional grab iron on house cars, hopper cars, and high side gondola cars built new or rebuilt on or after August 1, 1933.

Notice how some of the siding has been stripped from the sides of the cars.

Additional photo:

https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.losAngelesDailyNews%3A1053

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Bruce Smith
 

I think that we are looking at a retrofit. The diagonal brace, which in my experience can run either way, depending on the car and road, appears to have been applied over (or really under) the stringer. Normally, there are either diagonals, OR stringers between the bolster and the end sill, not both. For example, the PRR X31 was built with the diagonal, but when the single stringer was replaced with double stringers, the diagonal brace was removed and the stringers ran to the end of the car. 

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:07 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers
 

Well, I agree that it’s not tight to the floor above it, but . . . it’s also appearing to be bent, and on a wrecked car, I’d be cautious about generalizing from the condition of this particular diagonal to say that all diagonals on PFE reefers are the same.  Once bent, that channel has lost a good bit of its integrity.

 

What surprises me about this shot is that it’s much more common for diagonals to the end of the car to run from the middle of the bolster to the corner of the car, essentially at 90 degrees to this configuration.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 8:10 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

 

Tony or anyone --

A question - Did you notice the 'diagonal' brace between the draft gear and the floor stringer? On models
these diagonals are always flat against the floor. But this one looks like it goes from the floor (and stringer)
to the end sill - not flush against the floor.

Tim O'Connor

Lee Thwaits
 

I did not receive the photo of flood damaged PFE reefers.  What was the photo?

Lee Thwaits

Bruce Smith
 

Lee,

You can deal with this without emailing the group.

First, simply go the message thread on groups.io. You can do that from the link at the bottom of the message  that says "View/Reply Online". 

Then click on the link under the message to view all messages in the topic.

When you do this, you can scroll to the top message, and there you will clearly see two links in the original message. Clicking on those links will get you to the photos. 

If you scroll down a bit, you will see the message from Tim O'Conner specifically addressing the diagonal brace. That enlarged photo was attached to his message and can be seen right there on the web page.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Lee Thwaits <leeoldsa@...>
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 11:43 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers
 
I did not receive the photo of flood damaged PFE reefers.  What was the
photo?

Lee Thwaits



Schuyler Larrabee
 

Bruce, that works if you keep all the messages on your machine.  I often wish people commenting on a photo would include the original link, as I am sure I am not the only one looking to keep my email loading down.

 

Yes, you can go to groups.io for this list and get back to the original post, but that can be a major PITA.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 1:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

 

Lee,

 

You can deal with this without emailing the group.

 

First, simply go the message thread on groups.io. You can do that from the link at the bottom of the message  that says "View/Reply Online". 

 

Then click on the link under the message to view all messages in the topic.

 

When you do this, you can scroll to the top message, and there you will clearly see two links in the original message. Clicking on those links will get you to the photos. 

 

If you scroll down a bit, you will see the message from Tim O'Conner specifically addressing the diagonal brace. That enlarged photo was attached to his message and can be seen right there on the web page.

 

Regards,

Bruce

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Lee Thwaits <leeoldsa@...>
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 11:43 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

 

I did not receive the photo of flood damaged PFE reefers.  What was the
photo?

Lee Thwaits


Bruce Smith
 

Schuyler,

This has nothing to do with keeping messages on your machine. Since Lee was responding to a group email in the thread, he clearly has THAT message. That's all he needs. Clicking on the link at the bottom takes you to the thread, on the groups.io page, no PITA at all. A click later and you have all the messages and you can just scroll up. It's one of the HUGE advantages of Groups.io over Yehaw. 

Regards,
Bruce


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 12:40 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers
 

Bruce, that works if you keep all the messages on your machine.  I often wish people commenting on a photo would include the original link, as I am sure I am not the only one looking to keep my email loading down.

 

Yes, you can go to groups.io for this list and get back to the original post, but that can be a major PITA.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 1:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

 

Lee,

 

You can deal with this without emailing the group.

 

First, simply go the message thread on groups.io. You can do that from the link at the bottom of the message  that says "View/Reply Online". 

 

Then click on the link under the message to view all messages in the topic.

 

When you do this, you can scroll to the top message, and there you will clearly see two links in the original message. Clicking on those links will get you to the photos. 

 

If you scroll down a bit, you will see the message from Tim O'Conner specifically addressing the diagonal brace. That enlarged photo was attached to his message and can be seen right there on the web page.

 

Regards,

Bruce

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Lee Thwaits <leeoldsa@...>
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 11:43 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Flood Damaged PFE Reefers

 

I did not receive the photo of flood damaged PFE reefers.  What was the
photo?

Lee Thwaits


Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 08:07 AM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Well, I agree that it’s not tight to the floor above it, but . . . it’s also appearing to be bent, and on a wrecked car, I’d be cautious about generalizing from the condition of this particular diagonal to say that all diagonals on PFE reefers are the same.  Once bent, that channel has lost a good bit of its integrity.
All the way at the left edge of the second photo https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.losAngelesDailyNews%3A1053
is another car that shows both diagonals and neither is bent. I'd say the cars were built this way. the 1910 era NYC 36' steel underframe boxcar I tooled a couple years ago also had the diagonals below the floor stringers; they are on the Pullman builder's drawings. Those diagonals run the more conventional way, from the center of the bolster out to the car corners, likely to reinforce the frame behind the poling pocket. I'd say the purpose of running the diagonal in the opposit direction is to keep the body bolster from bending when the roping staple was used to move too many coupled cars. 

Dennis Storzek

Tim O'Connor
 


Yep, definitely below the stringer, and attached (abutted) to the end sill.



On 7/10/2020 2:56 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 08:07 AM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Well, I agree that it’s not tight to the floor above it, but . . . it’s also appearing to be bent, and on a wrecked car, I’d be cautious about generalizing from the condition of this particular diagonal to say that all diagonals on PFE reefers are the same.  Once bent, that channel has lost a good bit of its integrity.
All the way at the left edge of the second photo https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.losAngelesDailyNews%3A1053
is another car that shows both diagonals and neither is bent. I'd say the cars were built this way. the 1910 era NYC 36' steel underframe boxcar I tooled a couple years ago also had the diagonals below the floor stringers; they are on the Pullman builder's drawings. Those diagonals run the more conventional way, from the center of the bolster out to the car corners, likely to reinforce the frame behind the poling pocket. I'd say the purpose of running the diagonal in the opposit direction is to keep the body bolster from bending when the roping staple was used to move too many coupled cars. 

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts