Photo: Pacific Great Eastern Reefer 819 (Circa 1950s)


Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Pacific Great Eastern Reefer 819 (Circa 1950s)

Photo from the Royal BC Museum:

https://search-bcarchives.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/uploads/r/null/5/b/5b3365b046d40f16b7906c622ec038a5df45d782fa7245593f2d6c5bca09ba65/a-06532_141.jpg

Title:

Refrigerator car, no. 819, broadside, wood-sides, painted aluminum, Caribou herald, closeup, good detail

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


lrkdbn
 

Was this car original to PGE, or was it secondhand? If so does anyone know where it came from?
Larry King


John Riddell
 

This reefer was one of 20 wood reefers that PGE bought second hand in approximately 1948. The original owner is unknown however some photos show early PGE reporting marks painted on a patch over yellow sides that are consistent with Northern Refrigerator Line paint scheme.

 

John Riddell

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


greg kennelly
 

To amplify a bit on John Riddell’s comments, this group of twenty cars, 808 - 827, was purchased second-hand and received by the PGE in the 1947-48 time period.  While these cars, built in 11-22, are believed to be former Northern Refrigerator Line cars, no definitive information has been located.  While the ORERs show several series of NRC cars with dimensions that are close to those listed for the PGE cars, none are an exact match.  Between mid-1947 and early 1954 the total number of cars in the series had been reduced to ten, 810 - 819, through rebuilding, renumbering, conversion to other service, and scrapping in order to free up the 820+ number series for the arrival of all-steel overhead bunker refrigerators built in 10-54.  In August 1952 photos by Stan Styles, 820 & 822 were in FCR with no logo but placarded "For Company Service Only", and as late as July 1953, PGERy 821 was still in a patched out paint scheme as described by John.  The earliest photo I have seen is an Ernie Plant view of 812 in FCR with a caribou logo above the reporting marks weighed at Squamish in 6-47.  As the rebuilding - renumbering - scrapping program proceeded the cars were painted in the silver scheme with black lettering and the caribou logo in the more common location above the dimensional data.  810 and 812 had corner grab irons while the others had ladders and photographs show 812 to have a deeper centre sill than the others.  A few of the cars (811, 812 and at least one other, the number of which could not be read from a photo) received the 1962 (beyond the date range of this list) paint scheme of FCR with the “stacked” Pacific Great Eastern lettering in place of the caribou logo.

Cheers,
Greg Kennelly


Ed Hawkins
 



On May 29, 2021, at 10:19 PM, greg kennelly <greg_kennelly@...> wrote:

Between mid-1947 and early 1954 the total number of cars in the series had been reduced to ten, 810 - 819, through rebuilding, renumbering, conversion to other service, and scrapping in order to free up the 820+ number series for the arrival of all-steel overhead bunker refrigerators built in 10-54.  

Greg,
If it’s of interest to narrow the time period when the original 20 cars 808-827 were reduced to 10, the following ORER info may help to determine when the reduction occurred.

The following ORERs prior to 1953 do not specify any PGE car number series, just a total quantity of “Refrigerator” cars. From available data it’s unknown which car number was removed between 7/49 to 4/51. 

1/48, 7/49: (25)
4/51, 1/52: (24)
1/53, 10/53: 801-803 (3), 808-827 (10)
10/54: 801-803 (3), 810-819 (10), 820-824 (5, with an asterisk to indicate additions)

The reduction from 20 to 10 cars likely occurred in 1952. To further narrow the time, perhaps others can help with the April, July & October 1952 dates.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins




ROGER HINMAN
 

These cars were in fact purchased from NRL in August of 1946. There may have been some repairing once they were on PGE property.

Cars sold were formerly:

NRC 2659, 2685, 3002, 3019, 3082, 3122, 3143, 3254, 3521, 5203, 4277, 4466, 4484, 4518, 4615, 4641
5351,5909,5932, 12066, 12075

These cars were built by Haskell and Barker and Pullman between 1922 and 1925; cars as built were in the NRC 3000-3499; 4000-4499, and 5000-5499 and some had been renumbered while in NRC/NRL service. Complete drawings are available at the IRM Pullman library.

Roger Hinman

On May 29, 2021, at 9:56 AM, John Riddell <riddellj@...> wrote:

This reefer was one of 20 wood reefers that PGE bought second hand in approximately 1948. The original owner is unknown however some photos show early PGE reporting marks painted on a patch over yellow sides that are consistent with Northern Refrigerator Line paint scheme. 
 
John Riddell
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 


greg kennelly
 

Thanks to Ed and Roger for the information in their posts. To round out the story on PGE wood refrigerators, here are a couple of Ernie Plant photos of the other two series: 801 - 803, built new for the PGE in 1914 by National Steel car; and 804 - 806, acquired second-hand sometime between October 1939 (when there were only 3 refrigerators shown in the ORER) and July 1942 (when there were 6 listed).  The photos were both taken in Vancouver, BC; 802 on July 11, 1943 and 804 on March 10, 1944.  I don’t have a firm date for the introduction of the diamond-shaped PGE logo, which was red, blue, and black on the yellow cars (roof, fascia, and ends were FCR) according to the late Ed Aldridge, a former PGE machinist.  There is no record of numbers 807 - 809 being used.  805 was reported destroyed apparently sometime between July 1945 and April 1947.  It would be nice to find the ORERs that show the decrease to 5 refrigerators before the arrival of the 20 former NRC cars and the increase from 3 to 6 refrigerators in the 1939 - 1942 period to help tie down the dates.

Regards,
Greg Kennelly


greg kennelly
 

Further to my earlier post regarding the PGE’s 40' wood refrigerator cars, I have come across an old notebook with some information I extracted more than 45 years ago from a Pacific Great Eastern Railway Equipment Record  held at the Provincial Archives of British Columbia and realized that my statement that numbers 807 - 809 were never used was not correct.  It is true that 807 was never assigned but the 20 NRC cars were originally placed in the 808 - 827 series.  The document in the Archives indicated that all were purchased second-hand “circa 1948" - thanks to Roger, I now know “sometime in 1946" - for $544.35 (+/- $0.01) each and all were listed as built in 1924 (even though all the cars that received the aluminum paint scheme were stencilled  “BUILT 11/22").  Their interesting story up to the arrival of the all-steel refrigerators in series 820 - 824 in October 1954 follows:

808          Rebuilt 4/9/53     Re#’d 816 (2nd), value $3793.08       
809          Written off 1952
810          Rebuilt 1952, value $3793.10,       
811 (1st)  Written off 1952;                                811 (2nd)     Rebuilt aft 8/15/52* from 825, value $3793.08
812          Rebuilt 1952, value $$3793.08
813 (1st)  Written off 1952;                                813 (2nd)    Rebuilt aft 8/15/52* from 820, value $3793.08
814          Rebuilt 2/7/54, value $3793.08   
815 (1st)  Written off 1952;                                815 (2nd)    Rebuilt 4/8/53 from 823, value $3793.08
816 (1st)  Written off 1951;                                816 (2nd)    Rebuilt 4/9/53 from 808, value $3793.08
817          1955 value $544.34
818 (1st)  Written off 1952;                                818 (2nd)    Re#’d from 827, 5/14/53, value $544.34
819          1955 value 544.34
820          See 813 (2nd)*
821          Written off 1954         (Still in “patched-out” P.G.E.Ry livery 7/15/53)
822          Written off 1952
823          See 815 (2nd)
824          Written off 1951
825          See 811 (2nd)*
826          Written off 1951
827          See 818 (2nd)                                    * both in FCR in a Stan Styles photo of this date
                                                                             and were rebuilt, repainted and weighed by 12/52
Regards,
Greg Kennelly


ROGER HINMAN
 

Interesting data, NRC’s books show the cars were sold to PGE for $275 each, although each had a ledger value of over $2K a piece.  Delta may have been transportation cost?   In re-reviewing my original reply , 5203 was actually 4203 and there was also a 21st car sold, NRC 4430. 

Here’s how the actual build dates map out

Mar 22  2 cars   
Apr 22  7 cars
Total 9 cars from Lot 1 (these have a deeper center sill than the others

Oct 22  2 cars
Nov 22 6 cars
Total 8 cars from Lot 2

May 24  2 cars
Jun 24 2 cars
Total 4 cars from Lot 3

Good lesson is to be wary of build dates on second hand cars.




Roger Hinman



On Jun 1, 2021, at 12:37 AM, greg kennelly <greg_kennelly@...> wrote:

Further to my earlier post regarding the PGE’s 40' wood refrigerator cars, I have come across an old notebook with some information I extracted more than 45 years ago from a Pacific Great Eastern Railway Equipment Record  held at the Provincial Archives of British Columbia and realized that my statement that numbers 807 - 809 were never used was not correct.  It is true that 807 was never assigned but the 20 NRC cars were originally placed in the 808 - 827 series.  The document in the Archives indicated that all were purchased second-hand “circa 1948" - thanks to Roger, I now know “sometime in 1946" - for $544.35 (+/- $0.01) each and all were listed as built in 1924 (even though all the cars that received the aluminum paint scheme were stencilled  “BUILT 11/22").  Their interesting story up to the arrival of the all-steel refrigerators in series 820 - 824 in October 1954 follows:

808          Rebuilt 4/9/53     Re#’d 816 (2nd), value $3793.08       
809          Written off 1952
810          Rebuilt 1952, value $3793.10,       
811 (1st)  Written off 1952;                                811 (2nd)     Rebuilt aft 8/15/52* from 825, value $3793.08
812          Rebuilt 1952, value $$3793.08
813 (1st)  Written off 1952;                                813 (2nd)    Rebuilt aft 8/15/52* from 820, value $3793.08
814          Rebuilt 2/7/54, value $3793.08   
815 (1st)  Written off 1952;                                815 (2nd)    Rebuilt 4/8/53 from 823, value $3793.08
816 (1st)  Written off 1951;                                816 (2nd)    Rebuilt 4/9/53 from 808, value $3793.08
817          1955 value $544.34
818 (1st)  Written off 1952;                                818 (2nd)    Re#’d from 827, 5/14/53, value $544.34
819          1955 value 544.34
820          See 813 (2nd)*
821          Written off 1954         (Still in “patched-out” P.G.E.Ry livery 7/15/53)
822          Written off 1952
823          See 815 (2nd)
824          Written off 1951
825          See 811 (2nd)*
826          Written off 1951
827          See 818 (2nd)                                    * both in FCR in a Stan Styles photo of this date
                                                                             and were rebuilt, repainted and weighed by 12/52
Regards,
Greg Kennelly


greg kennelly
 

Many thanks, Roger.  That 21st car makes me wonder if PGE number 807 was to have been used for that car but, for some reason, they never showed it in the “Equipment Record” book.  At some point, I will have to get over to Victoria and see what else I can dig up in the old PGE Accounts.

Based on photographs I have, PGE 812 and 822 both show the deeper centre sill.  As 812 is the only post-1952 photograph I have that shows a car with the deeper centre sill, it appears that the other eight cars in Lot 1 were all among those written off in 1951 or 1952.

Regards,
Greg Kennelly


ROGER HINMAN
 

The other possibility is it was used as a parts bucket to support the other cars


Roger Hinman

On Jun 3, 2021, at 12:59 AM, greg kennelly <greg_kennelly@...> wrote:

Many thanks, Roger.  That 21st car makes me wonder if PGE number 807 was to have been used for that car but, for some reason, they never showed it in the “Equipment Record” book.  At some point, I will have to get over to Victoria and see what else I can dig up in the old PGE Accounts.

Based on photographs I have, PGE 812 and 822 both show the deeper centre sill.  As 812 is the only post-1952 photograph I have that shows a car with the deeper centre sill, it appears that the other eight cars in Lot 1 were all among those written off in 1951 or 1952.

Regards,
Greg Kennelly