Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company
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Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company Photo courtesy of James Perz on the Facebook Great Northern Paper Company Employees group. Flat car is unidentified. Other than the blocking the crawlers don’t seem to be secured by and cables or chains. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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The train in the background is quite interesting, with what looks like a couple of boxcars, a tank car, a boxcar with windows (MOW?), a hopper, a State of Maine car, another boxcar, a caboose and two passenger cars! MOW? Mixed train?
Bruce Smith Auburn, AL
From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Bob Chaparro via groups.io" <chiefbobbb@...>
Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company Photo courtesy of James Perz on the Facebook Great Northern Paper Company Employees group. Flat car is unidentified. Other than the blocking the crawlers don’t seem to be secured by and cables or chains. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Guy Wilber
Bob Chaparro wrote:
"Other than the blocking the crawlers don’t seem to be secured by and cables or chains."
I have made this point numerous times on this list; other than to secure logs chain was NOT used to secure any open top loads during the time frame of this list. Cable was used only to secure "rotating" shovels and cranes -- little to nothing more. There were a few military items that used cable for securement as well. The blocking on the dozers featured within the photo is spot on for the period...chocked only...NO chain, NO cable or wire.
Securement of open top loads loads was also an ongoing project by the MCBA, the ARA and the AAR Open Top Loading Committee with revised manuals or supplements issued yearly. One cannot put full trust in a diagram from 1928 if you are modeling 1953. Open Top Loading rules were also mandatory, thus if you want to replicate authentic loads purchase a manual from as close to year are modeling. They are almost always available via ebay and used book outlets.
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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Charlie Vlk
The improper securement of tracked equipment on flat cars was the cause of a serious wreck on the CB&Q.
On April 3, 1947 at 10:40pm a International Harvestor TD-18 fell off of Southern 51327, a 54”-2” flat car that was on Extra 110 West operating on the middle track just past the Downers Grove depot on the CB&Q East End (aka “The Racetrack”). No. 24, the inbound Twin Cities Zephyr, was operating at 73 miles per hour when it struck the tractor which had landed upright on a street crossing moments before. The E-5A No.9914A locomotive struck the tractor, derailed and was thrown to its side as it hit the end of the Downers Grove station platform and it and the train slid into the front of the station. The articulated set received considerable damage but remained upright and somewhat jack knifed. The engineer of No. 24 died as a result of injuries received in the accident. The fireman and the front brakeman of No. 24 were injured. Subsequent investigation revealed that while the other TD-18 that remained on the car was properly blocked per AAR rules there was no evidence that the side blocking was ever secured to prevent lateral movement of the tractor that caused the accident. The IH plant in Chicago was served by the Illinois Northern and the car was delivered to the CB&Q at Western Avenue. Testimony from the Plant, IN, and CB&Q inspectors at Western Avenue and Morton Park yards all stated that they had checked the load by hammering on the securing blocks but obviously all failed to detect the blocks on one side that were not nailed to the flat car floor. ICC Report Inv-3092 can be downloaded as a pdf by searching April 3, 1947 Downers Grove, Illinois. Charlie Vlk
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Guy Wilber via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2022 1:17 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company
Bob Chaparro wrote:
"Other than the blocking the crawlers don’t seem to be secured by and cables or chains."
I have made this point numerous times on this list; other than to secure logs chain was NOT used to secure any open top loads during the time frame of this list. Cable was used only to secure "rotating" shovels and cranes -- little to nothing more. There were a few military items that used cable for securement as well. The blocking on the dozers featured within the photo is spot on for the period...chocked only...NO chain, NO cable or wire.
Securement of open top loads loads was also an ongoing project by the MCBA, the ARA and the AAR Open Top Loading Committee with revised manuals or supplements issued yearly. One cannot put full trust in a diagram from 1928 if you are modeling 1953. Open Top Loading rules were also mandatory, thus if you want to replicate authentic loads purchase a manual from as close to year are modeling. They are almost always available via ebay and used book outlets.
Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada
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Rich Gibson
Good eyes, Bruce! According to a 1939 BAR timetable, they ran a number of mixed trains to outlying locations in the north woods. One of them was a 30 minute route from Millinocket (where Great Northern Paper was located) to E. Millimocket. Might be it if Millinocket was the photo location. The boxcar with windows could be either a MOW car or one of the BAR cabooses constructed from troop sleepers.
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Very weird. They're just a few miles apart -- 30 minutes at 10 mph :-D On 8/3/2022 7:57 PM, Rich Gibson via groups.io wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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gary laakso
That is a very unusual uncoupling lever on the flatcar with what appears to be a third eye bolt attached to the casting housing the coupler. Any ideas which road had that style of flatcar uncoupling levers?
Gary Laakso Northwest of Mike Brock
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2022 10:29 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company
Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company Photo courtesy of James Perz on the Facebook Great Northern Paper Company Employees group. Flat car is unidentified. Other than the blocking the crawlers don’t seem to be secured by and cables or chains. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Steve SANDIFER
I’m interested in the location of the vertical brake staff.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2022 9:10 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company
That is a very unusual uncoupling lever on the flatcar with what appears to be a third eye bolt attached to the casting housing the coupler. Any ideas which road had that style of flatcar uncoupling levers?
Gary Laakso Northwest of Mike Brock
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company Photo courtesy of James Perz on the Facebook Great Northern Paper Company Employees group. Flat car is unidentified. Other than the blocking the crawlers don’t seem to be secured by and cables or chains. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Rich Gibson
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On Wed, Aug 3, 2022 at 11:16 AM, Guy Wilber wrote:
Cable was used only to secure "rotating" shovels and cranes -- little to nothing more.Perhaps you are addressing requirements. There are many pre-1961 photos of flat car loads secured by wire. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Cool. What year is that timetable for ? I think the trip is much shorter for birds. But I could beat the train on my bicycle. :-D On 8/4/2022 9:41 AM, Rich Gibson via groups.io wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Eric Kurowski commented: “My AAR top load manual shows crawler equipment had bolts though the track that went through the deck. It was one of many acceptable ways.” Unfortunately, he didn’t cite the year for the manual. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Andy Carlson
I asked Richard Yaremko, whose hobby-in-the-hobby of model railroading is flat cars with loads. He thinks the flat car closest to the lens is a CB&Q car. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
On Wednesday, August 3, 2022 at 07:10:25 PM PDT, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote: That is a very unusual uncoupling lever on the flatcar with what appears to be a third eye bolt attached to the casting housing the coupler. Any ideas which road had that style of flatcar uncoupling levers?
Photo: Receiving International Harvester Crawlers At The Great Northern Paper Company Photo courtesy of James Perz on the Facebook Great Northern Paper Company Employees group. Flat car is unidentified. Other than the blocking the crawlers don’t seem to be secured by and cables or chains. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Guy Wilber
Bob Chaparro wrote:, Guy Wilber wrote:
"Cable was used only to secure "rotating" shovels and cranes -- little to nothing more.Perhaps you are addressing requirements. There are many pre-1961 photos of flat car loads secured by wire." Bob, perhaps you should read my post again. I wrote; You wrote; "Other than the blocking the crawlers don’t seem to be secured by and cables or chains." I responded by writing; "The blocking on the dozers featured within the photo is spot on for the period...chocked only...NO chain, NO cable or wire." Again, chain was not used at all to secure loads (other than logs) and cable was used for a minimum of applications during the time frame of this list. The requirements for securing crawler type tractors didn't include wire securement until the revisions issued (via supplement) in May of 1947. You see, I am quite aware that wire was used to secure open top loads prior to 1961.
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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Rich Gibson
1939 timetable. I don’t have a more recent one without doing some digging. The picture must be 1951 given the combination of a red-white-blue boxcar and steam.
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Guy Wilber
Bob Chaparro wrote:
“Eric Kurowski commented: “My AAR top load manual shows crawler equipment had bolts though the track that went through the deck. It was one of many acceptable ways.” Unfortunately, he didn’t cite the year for the manual.” Eric later claimed this “information” came from a copy of the 1947 Open Top Rules. He’s definitely misinterpreting the rules and/or the diagram (172) covering the loading and securing of track mounted equipment including bulldozers. No such provision existed for using bolts passing through the tracks to secure a load. Additionally, a friend pointed out that the International pickup at the end of the dock appears to be a 1953 or 1954 model. The loading method within the photo matches the revisions within the 1952 Pamphlet No. MD-6 Rules (Figure 51) for machines weighing 25,000 pounds or less. Again, wood blocking and chocks with no wire securement being required. Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada |
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