Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)
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Charles Etheredge
Back in the 1920-50's (for sure), a LOT of watermelons were loaded on stock cars out of Hempstead, Texas. That area was one, if not THE hub of the watermelon areas of the state..
I have a picture somewhere of a dozen or more cattle cars waiting to be loaded with a bunch of horse drawn wagons full of melons. I've eaten a bunch of Hempstead melons. Droll...... |
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In addition to using stock cars for fruit, they were also pressed into service during the grain rush. Of course for that they were steam cleaned and lined with cardboard, tarps, possibly plywood or whatever worked to enclose the grain. Doug Paasch On Thu, May 26, 2022, 6:29 PM Charles Etheredge <ceth512@...> wrote: Back in the 1920-50's (for sure), a LOT of watermelons were loaded on stock cars out of Hempstead, Texas. That area was one, if not THE hub of the watermelon areas of the state.. |
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william darnaby
Here is a photo of watermelons being loaded in a different kind of stock car on the real Indiana Railroad. Bill Darnaby Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#192947) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic _._,_._,_
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John Riddell
Canadian Government Regulations (1927) stated " ... disinfection shall be done by the thorough cleansing of the car and its subsequent white-washing with lime and carbolic acid in the proportion of 1 pound of commercial carbolic acid to 5 gallons of lime-wash ..."
John Riddell |
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Lee
The info on this one shows pumpkins being loaded in October, so this practice had a wider range of seasonal use.
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np328
Robert GP asked in post 192885 " any insight on how long it lasted and what other produce was shipped this way? "
I've attached an AAR Summary, several pages from several months actually, that make me ask if photos like these are not recordings of well....anomalies? And while interesting to look at, modeling such might require an explanation. One of the above posters (and a person whose postings and presentations I have always held in high regard) once offered as a fifth rule (?) or corollary that if it needs a constant explanation, perhaps one should think again about modeling it. Of the attached: June 20, 1956 - At the star we see that in 1956 Special Order 95 was still being issued regarding ventilated cars. (And had been for many, many, years.) The three roads were the CW&C; I believe the Seaboard, and perhaps the ACL. I recall the first because I had to pull out my 1928 atlas and look it up. The later two I'm guessing at because when I showed up at CCB, decades ago, and displayed a photocopy to Bill Welch, his eyes got big, really big, and he asked if he could have it for his then future book and I have never done the digging needed to get another copy of the original. ( All of these were of course, some of Bill's Ya all roads.) The copy of Special Order 95 I had was dated to the mid-1940s. The April 19,1957 relates that fan equipped reefers are what the shippers desire in CA for cantaloupes. (And possibly other melons.) August 21, 1956 page 2 of the report gives us numbers of fan cars for that time frame. And some ratios overall. And lastly, Jan. 20, 1956 has marks by comments on meat reefers. I had put my input on "can a regular reefer haul meat in addition to produce?" I recalled seeing this at the time however could not find the source material. Until again I found it now. I would imagine as time went on and more beef got processed and frozen and then shipped, things changed. However at the time in 1956, this looks to be an emergency fallback for two weeks as at this time of year, reefers are in the shortest supply. (Which is to say, with research, the proper research, and the proper timing, the proper situation, and proper location, one could model what would otherwise be anomalies.) I should say that the dates are at the top of each image and if there is a secret to getting them to upload in order, I have not found it. If these upload as listed above, it was luck. James Dick - Roseville, MN 
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Jim Dick,
This is good stuff! Having said that ... if a few stock cars were used - wait for it - every year ... was it such a stretch that it should be called "exceptional"? I agree with your conclusions in general. And note that far too many of us will use what was an every season exception to justify having a stock car being loaded with watermelons. My response to that is "those exceptions are OK ... but only if you have already modeled the normal" ... and only if they are 'irregular enough on your layout'. It is easy to have too many irregularities - they are 'neat" but may not end up with a "prototypical feel" and instead you risk being "that layout that is mostly the exceptional/irregular". ===> Which, if that's what you are going for, is OK by me. I have a specific set of cars I call "the good stuff" which is full of every day/normal cars that would be seen in my era. They are not only prototypical (meaning "normal") but also are at least one cut above in terms of the accuracy and detail level. And they are all weathered - to different levels and for different parts of the country. Since my layout represents the PNW in the post War years ... cars common in Florida are much less likely to show up than cars common in the PNW. This works - for me. - Jim in the PNW |
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... additional thoughts ...
When we model a scene - as opposed to a car - that scene on our layout tends to be permanent. Hence modeling a stock car with some watermelons inside it - that makes an appearance on your layout ... would seem more 'acceptable' (to the proto police) than modeling a scene where watermelons are being loaded. If, on the other hand, you are modeling a specific location where they shipped watermelons every year then if you have an 'action scene' that has some melons being loaded ... whose going to complain? Certainly not me - especially if your layout is representing some part of Texas/where ever in the summer .... - Jim in the PNW |
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Steve SANDIFER
You could always limit the use of the stock cars for watermelons to the month of May or June, then put them away until the next year. A lot of melons came out of Hempstead, TX and Luling, TX. Luling still has an annual celebration known as the “Watermelon Thump.” http://newsite.watermelonthump.com/ Both of these were on the SP and the SP used stock cars for this purpose. In researching my stock car book I found documentation about the construction of a siding and stock pen in Peters, TX, just north of Sealy, on the ATSF. The railroad later removed the stock chute when there had been no shipments of cattle for 6 years in order to reduce the taxable value but kept the siding because it was used to ship carloads of watermelons every year. In 1955 the ICC reported that watermelons were the #4 product shipped in stock cars. But again, a very small number in comparison.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2022 10:50 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)
Jim Dick, |
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Dave Nelson
Steve, which ICC report had that data?
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2022 1:30 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)
You could always limit the use of the stock cars for watermelons to the month of May or June, then put them away until the next year. A lot of melons came out of Hempstead, TX and Luling, TX. Luling still has an annual celebration known as the “Watermelon Thump.” http://newsite.watermelonthump.com/ Both of these were on the SP and the SP used stock cars for this purpose. In researching my stock car book I found documentation about the construction of a siding and stock pen in Peters, TX, just north of Sealy, on the ATSF. The railroad later removed the stock chute when there had been no shipments of cattle for 6 years in order to reduce the taxable value but kept the siding because it was used to ship carloads of watermelons every year. In 1955 the ICC reported that watermelons were the #4 product shipped in stock cars. But again, a very small number in comparison.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Jim Dick, |
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Steve SANDIFER
I thought this was from the Freight Commodity Statistics from the ICC, but that does not add up. Looking at the original documents I photographed it shows the 1956 Total carloads of livestock to be 785,994, considerably higher than I quoted. That document also does not break the statistics down my car type. There were 70815 carloads of watermelons, but the FCS does not indicate the type of car used. I’m sorry I can’t put my fingers on where the original numbers came from.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2022 8:48 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)
Steve, which ICC report had that data?
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
You could always limit the use of the stock cars for watermelons to the month of May or June, then put them away until the next year. A lot of melons came out of Hempstead, TX and Luling, TX. Luling still has an annual celebration known as the “Watermelon Thump.” http://newsite.watermelonthump.com/ Both of these were on the SP and the SP used stock cars for this purpose. In researching my stock car book I found documentation about the construction of a siding and stock pen in Peters, TX, just north of Sealy, on the ATSF. The railroad later removed the stock chute when there had been no shipments of cattle for 6 years in order to reduce the taxable value but kept the siding because it was used to ship carloads of watermelons every year. In 1955 the ICC reported that watermelons were the #4 product shipped in stock cars. But again, a very small number in comparison.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Jim Dick, |
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anthony wagner
I'd guess that ventilated box cars, which were well represented on various southern roads, were also commonly used for shipments of all kinds of melons and other produce not needing refrigeration. They show up in photos, usually as singles, in photos of trains in the post war period at locations far from home. I have no information as to how common their use was but in my 1-1-50 ORER there were 9968 such cars total with most - 9146 cars - belonging to SAL, ACL, CG, and L&N. The remaining 823 cars were owned by C&WC, C&O, D&H (!), DL&W (!), SOU and N&W. Tony Wagner
On Tuesday, May 31, 2022, 05:30:10 PM CDT, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I thought this was from the Freight Commodity Statistics from the ICC, but that does not add up. Looking at the original documents I photographed it shows the 1956 Total carloads of livestock to be 785,994, considerably higher than I quoted. That document also does not break the statistics down my car type. There were 70815 carloads of watermelons, but the FCS does not indicate the type of car used. I’m sorry I can’t put my fingers on where the original numbers came from.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2022 8:48 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)
Steve, which ICC report had that data?
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
You could always limit the use of the stock cars for watermelons to the month of May or June, then put them away until the next year. A lot of melons came out of Hempstead, TX and Luling, TX. Luling still has an annual celebration known as the “Watermelon Thump.” http://newsite.watermelonthump.com/ Both of these were on the SP and the SP used stock cars for this purpose. In researching my stock car book I found documentation about the construction of a siding and stock pen in Peters, TX, just north of Sealy, on the ATSF. The railroad later removed the stock chute when there had been no shipments of cattle for 6 years in order to reduce the taxable value but kept the siding because it was used to ship carloads of watermelons every year. In 1955 the ICC reported that watermelons were the #4 product shipped in stock cars. But again, a very small number in comparison.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Jim Dick, |
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Dave Nelson
Ok. Those line items match ICC Category code names and finding those names plus carloads is something of interest for me. Thanks for the reply.
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 3:30 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)
I thought this was from the Freight Commodity Statistics from the ICC, but that does not add up. Looking at the original documents I photographed it shows the 1956 Total carloads of livestock to be 785,994, considerably higher than I quoted. That document also does not break the statistics down my car type. There were 70815 carloads of watermelons, but the FCS does not indicate the type of car used. I’m sorry I can’t put my fingers on where the original numbers came from.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Steve, which ICC report had that data?
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
You could always limit the use of the stock cars for watermelons to the month of May or June, then put them away until the next year. A lot of melons came out of Hempstead, TX and Luling, TX. Luling still has an annual celebration known as the “Watermelon Thump.” http://newsite.watermelonthump.com/ Both of these were on the SP and the SP used stock cars for this purpose. In researching my stock car book I found documentation about the construction of a siding and stock pen in Peters, TX, just north of Sealy, on the ATSF. The railroad later removed the stock chute when there had been no shipments of cattle for 6 years in order to reduce the taxable value but kept the siding because it was used to ship carloads of watermelons every year. In 1955 the ICC reported that watermelons were the #4 product shipped in stock cars. But again, a very small number in comparison.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Jim Dick, |
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Todd Sullivan
Ted,
I don't know if it suggests that, but cattle shipments did tend to be seasonal. My understanding is that, in the spring, cattle were often shipped from winter grazing areas to summer pastures at higher levels (think Colorado, Wyoming and Montana), and in the fall, shipped back again. Also, cattle would be shipped to cities with slaughterhouses (think Kansas City, Omaha, Chicago) at the end of the grazing season after round-ups. I know the spring-fall grazing seasons were a big factor on the D&RGW narrow gauge line stock movements, and I think they probably applied elsewhere across the west. I invite others with more information to comment. Todd Sullivan |
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Ray Breyer
Seasonality is somewhat of a myth, at least on the large stock yard side of the industry. See page 37 of the attached Chicago Union Stockyard numbers; 1900-1921 show largely the same thing. True, April is down and October is up, but you're still talking about large numbers (192,000 vs. 330,000 head of cattle, or 3600 vs. 5700 loaded cars). Those cars not hauling to stockyards catering to the slaughterhouses would be in use hauling for pasturage. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 03:44:03 PM CDT, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:
Ted, I don't know if it suggests that, but cattle shipments did tend to be seasonal. My understanding is that, in the spring, cattle were often shipped from winter grazing areas to summer pastures at higher levels (think Colorado, Wyoming and Montana), and in the fall, shipped back again. Also, cattle would be shipped to cities with slaughterhouses (think Kansas City, Omaha, Chicago) at the end of the grazing season after round-ups. I know the spring-fall grazing seasons were a big factor on the D&RGW narrow gauge line stock movements, and I think they probably applied elsewhere across the west. I invite others with more information to comment. Todd Sullivan |
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Todd Sullivan
Thank you, Ray!
Todd Sullivan |
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Ray Breyer
Nope: it means that A specific yard had A specific car at A specific date in time, that wasn't doing anything else. Yes, livestock was seasonal, but there are lots of variables that go into that statement. Where are you talking about? When are you talking about? What era are you talking about? What railroad are you talking about? The car fleets would move to where the traffic was, meaning that you'd see odd things like W&LE stock cars in Oklahoma. Leftover cars would be used to haul other loads, but I suspect that there was a constant trickle of that activity, rather than downtime seasons for entire fleets of stock cars. If you're modeling before 1936 (when the USDA says 50% of all livestock movement were by motor vehicle, not by rail) you can trace a lot of roster fiddling by railroads, as they attempt to balance their equipment investments with traffic requirements. Stock cars come and go pretty rapidly, and it was large leasing companies like Mather and Streets that provided some cushion against surges. After 1936 the stock car fleet is on a straight downward spiral, as most livestock movements transitioned to trucks by 1960. There were outliers that moved stock by rail into the 1980s, but they were at the tail end of a 60 year trend. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL |
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Steve SANDIFER
You really need to study this railroad by railroad. Hogs, sheep, and cattle did not all move at the same time. A western railroad like the Santa Fe was heavy with cattle but light with hogs. Early in the 20th century, pork was the favored meat. By the end of WWII, it was beef, and each animal had its own season. So there were heavier months than others, but this depended on the year being modeled, the location, the railroad, etc.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 4:00 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)
Seasonality is somewhat of a myth, at least on the large stock yard side of the industry. See page 37 of the attached Chicago Union Stockyard numbers; 1900-1921 show largely the same thing. True, April is down and October is up, but you're still talking about large numbers (192,000 vs. 330,000 head of cattle, or 3600 vs. 5700 loaded cars). Those cars not hauling to stockyards catering to the slaughterhouses would be in use hauling for pasturage.
Ray Breyer
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 03:44:03 PM CDT, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:
Ted, |
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Remember that livestock slaughter took place year-round, some plants running several shifts. Slaughter houses also like to keep1-3 days of livestock on hand to keep cutting lines going even if supply was disrupted by weather, holidays, or other anomalies. Livestock shipments were/are an everyday occurrence to keep those slaughter houses working. And buyers from the slaughter houses went far afield seeking suitable animals, resulting in animals being shipped daily, sometimes over long distances. It is also important to note that trucks were not restricted to the 28 hr law like railroads, until the 1990s, well after the railroads were completely out of the livestock shipping business. But Ray is correct, some livestock shipments were seasonal. Think sheep being moved from high mountain meadows to lowlands in the fall, and back up to the high lands in the spring. Feeder calves were moved from western grasslands to midwestern feedlots and local farmers for feeding on corn each spring. Then once "fattened" these same calves moved to slaughter in the fall/winter. Pigs are a little different. One point, most are raised within 100 miles of where they will be slaughtered, so hog shipments quickly moved by truck, even in the 30s. Most pig farmers plan their breeding plans and their feeder pig purchases to have a load ready to sell about every two weeks. Doug Harding Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad
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