Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)


Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

A photo from the University of Wyoming:

http://digitalcollections.uwyo.edu/luna/servlet/detail/uwydbuwy~23~23~992579~208256?qvq=q:wreck&mi=123&trs=184

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Robert kirkham
 

What was E.M.Ry. - stencilled on the GN boxcar?

Rob

On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)
A photo from the University of Wyoming:
Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Bob and List Members,
 
Thanks Bob for the terrific image.
 
With respect to dates...
 
* Reweigh dates that are only vaguely discernable on the GN boxcar and the TP&W gon might read 00 - as in 1900
 
* One boxcar is lettered for Burlington, Cedar Rapids and Northern, which was absorbed in 1903 into the Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railway
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 1:07 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

A photo from the University of Wyoming:

http://digitalcollections.uwyo.edu/luna/servlet/detail/uwydbuwy~23~23~992579~208256?qvq=q:wreck&mi=123&trs=184

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


gary laakso
 

Eastern Railway of Minnesota.  Leased to GN in May of 1902 and purchased 5 years later.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

What was E.M.Ry. - stencilled on the GN boxcar?

Rob

On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)
A photo from the University of Wyoming:
Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Dave Parker
 

I wish the image was sharper, but to my eye there is a mix of cars here that are and are not compliant with the Safety Appliance Act amendment of 1911.  Apparently it took a good many years to achieve full compliance in the national freight fleet, but I think 1912 to 1915 would be a good guess for this photo.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Robert kirkham
 

thanks Gary - it makes me think there is another reason to model earlier eras - the numerous railways/roads that were later abandoned, bankrupted and merged would provide interesting modelling and research challenges.

Rob 

On Jun 20, 2021, at 12:23 PM, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Eastern Railway of Minnesota.  Leased to GN in May of 1902 and purchased 5 years later.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

What was E.M.Ry. - stencilled on the GN boxcar?

Rob

On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)
A photo from the University of Wyoming:
Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA



Andy Carlson
 

thanks Gary - it makes me think there is another reason to model earlier eras - 

Has increased meaning of the term "No two cars are alike". Standardization made it easier for us as modelers but did have an impact on variety.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Bob Chaparro
 

Good source for info and photos on freight cars 1914 and way earlier:
EarlyRail@groups.io | Home
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 10:07 AM, Bob Chaparro wrote:
http://digitalcollections.uwyo.edu/luna/servlet/detail/uwydbuwy~23~23~992579~208256?qvq=q:wreck&mi=123&trs=184
Coming in late here, but this photo is an excellent example of the problems with early steel roofs, and why they were so slow to be adopted. Looking at the wrecked cars in the pile, only one has a steel roof. The cars with the double board roofs are mostly intact, while the one steel roof is completely destroyed; all of the seams between panels have split open. Admittedly, the car has likely endured extreme racking, but wood framed house cars ( and the early steel framed cars with less than optimal stiffness in the roof structure) where known to rack in normal service, termed "weaving" in the trade press of the day. Because of this the sheets of the early steel roofs would loosen from the car, and leak. The initial solution to this problem was to add heavy metal clasps to the edge of the roof, the theory being that this allowed larger screws into the eave, to better hold the sheets in place. The car in the photo has these, two per panel. However, as the photo illustrates, this really was not effective because it didn't address the basic problem.

The next stage of improvement, about WWI, was the "flexible" or "pivoted" metal roof, examples from all three major roof vendors illustrated HERE.
This separated the metal panel from the roof eave with a slip joint, and provided wide wood battens to clamp down the edges of the sheets without restraining their lateral movement. The wood battens were then covered with wide metal seam caps designed to keep the water out of the joints.

The next stage of development, in the twenties, eliminated the wood sheathing and integrated the seam caps with the supporting carlines, while still providing the flexibility required. The Hutchins Dry Lading and Viking roofs are examples., The problem wasn't truely solved until the carbuilders and railroads decided to allow enough material in the roof structure to actually prevent weaving, with the flat riveted roofs as used on the X29 and early ARA steel cars, which were a precursor to the Murphy "Solid Steel" roof.

Dennis Storzek



Schuyler Larrabee
 

Very interesting observation, Dennis.  I was surprised at how well the wood-framed cars retained their structural integrity as a rectilinear box, though the corner of the metal roofed car suffered considerably.

 

But I was curious about the evidently dismembered car number 1776 in the upper left of the photo.  Cleanly chopped off, it appears, and where is the rest of that car?

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 12:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

 

On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 10:07 AM, Bob Chaparro wrote:

http://digitalcollections.uwyo.edu/luna/servlet/detail/uwydbuwy~23~23~992579~208256?qvq=q:wreck&mi=123&trs=184

Coming in late here, but this photo is an excellent example of the problems with early steel roofs, and why they were so slow to be adopted. Looking at the wrecked cars in the pile, only one has a steel roof. The cars with the double board roofs are mostly intact, while the one steel roof is completely destroyed; all of the seams between panels have split open. Admittedly, the car has likely endured extreme racking, but wood framed house cars ( and the early steel framed cars with less than optimal stiffness in the roof structure) where known to rack in normal service, termed "weaving" in the trade press of the day. Because of this the sheets of the early steel roofs would loosen from the car, and leak. The initial solution to this problem was to add heavy metal clasps to the edge of the roof, the theory being that this allowed larger screws into the eave, to better hold the sheets in place. The car in the photo has these, two per panel. However, as the photo illustrates, this really was not effective because it didn't address the basic problem.

The next stage of improvement, about WWI, was the "flexible" or "pivoted" metal roof, examples from all three major roof vendors illustrated HERE.
This separated the metal panel from the roof eave with a slip joint, and provided wide wood battens to clamp down the edges of the sheets without restraining their lateral movement. The wood battens were then covered with wide metal seam caps designed to keep the water out of the joints.

The next stage of development, in the twenties, eliminated the wood sheathing and integrated the seam caps with the supporting carlines, while still providing the flexibility required. The Hutchins Dry Lading and Viking roofs are examples., The problem wasn't truely solved until the carbuilders and railroads decided to allow enough material in the roof structure to actually prevent weaving, with the flat riveted roofs as used on the X29 and early ARA steel cars, which were a precursor to the Murphy "Solid Steel" roof.

Dennis Storzek


Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 09:45 AM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

But I was curious about the evidently dismembered car number 1776 in the upper left of the photo.  Cleanly chopped off, it appears, and where is the rest of that car?

 

Schuyler


Behind the car in front of it. The body isn't completely broken, only the roof, and the men are standing on the load in the car.

Dennis Storzek

 


Charlie Vlk
 

All-

This wreck picture has drawn comments from both the STMFC and EarlyRail groups so please excuse the dual post….

The CB&Q leased in late 1878, then purchased, ten National Steel Tube box cars built under the LaMothe patents.  They also built two cars under license that had railroad improvements…the ill-fated 8300 and 8301.  These cars had underframes and body structure framed with steel tubes and covered with iron sheet, primarily held together with cast and wrought connectors.   LaMothe and his successors had limited sales of cars over a period of approximately 30 years going back to before the Civil War.  While this is predates the STMFC era it is an interesting insight into the attitude of Master Mechanics on the early dawn of the steel car era.

The following is a transcription of a letter from Harry B. Stone (who would play a pivotal role later in the famous Burlington Strike), Superintendent of the Locomotive and Car Department, regarding  a car “in a badly demoralized condition””

CHICAGO, BURLINGTON & QUINCY RAILROAD.

 

Office Supt. Loco & Car Depts

 

Aurora Ill,  November 30th  1880

T.J. Potter Esq.

      Genl Mgr- Chicago

               

Dear Sir:     I now have at the Aurora Shops tubular car No. 8300, which was in the wreck at Rio, in a badly demoralized condition and which shows much more plainly than I have been able to explain heretofore, the disadvantages of its “spider web” construction.  The next car to it was one of our common wooden cars and which came out of the racket with comparatively small injuries.

   This car is in such bad shape that I am entirely at a loss to know how to repair it, and if left to my own devices should probably tear it down and put it into scrap; as however it is a patent car I would suggest that you notify the patentee, Mr. W. O. Cooke,  Nos. 13 & 15 Park Row, New York City, and ask him if he will not come out and advise with use in regard to its repair.  Before doing anything with the car I shall have a careful and thorough report made and also sketches showing the manner of failure.

                                                                                                                                               

Yours truly,

(sgd)    Harry B. Stone

 

(Car 8300 was eventually stripped and received a body with the same  28’ dimensions but with standard CB&Q wood body details. The other car built under license, 8301, in 1887 received a wood body which had standard CB&Q 34’ box car dimensions.)

 

The “common wooden” cars were easy to repair and the railroads were well equipped to handle them.  Until lumber in the sizes and species needed became difficult to source and expensive the railroads were reluctant to move to iron and steel cars and to convert the infrastructure to build and maintain them.

 

Charlie Vlk

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 11:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

 

Very interesting observation, Dennis.  I was surprised at how well the wood-framed cars retained their structural integrity as a rectilinear box, though the corner of the metal roofed car suffered considerably.

 

But I was curious about the evidently dismembered car number 1776 in the upper left of the photo.  Cleanly chopped off, it appears, and where is the rest of that car?

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 12:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

 

On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 10:07 AM, Bob Chaparro wrote:

http://digitalcollections.uwyo.edu/luna/servlet/detail/uwydbuwy~23~23~992579~208256?qvq=q:wreck&mi=123&trs=184

Coming in late here, but this photo is an excellent example of the problems with early steel roofs, and why they were so slow to be adopted. Looking at the wrecked cars in the pile, only one has a steel roof. The cars with the double board roofs are mostly intact, while the one steel roof is completely destroyed; all of the seams between panels have split open. Admittedly, the car has likely endured extreme racking, but wood framed house cars ( and the early steel framed cars with less than optimal stiffness in the roof structure) where known to rack in normal service, termed "weaving" in the trade press of the day. Because of this the sheets of the early steel roofs would loosen from the car, and leak. The initial solution to this problem was to add heavy metal clasps to the edge of the roof, the theory being that this allowed larger screws into the eave, to better hold the sheets in place. The car in the photo has these, two per panel. However, as the photo illustrates, this really was not effective because it didn't address the basic problem.

The next stage of improvement, about WWI, was the "flexible" or "pivoted" metal roof, examples from all three major roof vendors illustrated HERE.
This separated the metal panel from the roof eave with a slip joint, and provided wide wood battens to clamp down the edges of the sheets without restraining their lateral movement. The wood battens were then covered with wide metal seam caps designed to keep the water out of the joints.

The next stage of development, in the twenties, eliminated the wood sheathing and integrated the seam caps with the supporting carlines, while still providing the flexibility required. The Hutchins Dry Lading and Viking roofs are examples., The problem wasn't truely solved until the carbuilders and railroads decided to allow enough material in the roof structure to actually prevent weaving, with the flat riveted roofs as used on the X29 and early ARA steel cars, which were a precursor to the Murphy "Solid Steel" roof.

Dennis Storzek


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Thanks, again, Dennis.  Now I see that the 1776 car extends past the more-or-less intact car to the left of those men.  Because the corner of that car coincides with the corner of the torn-apart roof, it appeared to me that was a separate box from the rest of the car.

 

I also noted this time with some amusement how many of the extended vertical shaft brake wheels have suffered what so many HO scale models do, shafts bent at the roofline . . .  😊 most extreme example right below the number 1776.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 1:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

 

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 09:45 AM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

But I was curious about the evidently dismembered car number 1776 in the upper left of the photo.  Cleanly chopped off, it appears, and where is the rest of that car?

 

Schuyler


Behind the car in front of it. The body isn't completely broken, only the roof, and the men are standing on the load in the car.

Dennis Storzek