Topics

Pipe loads on the cheap

Cyril Durrenberger
 

I have started a photo album, if approved for photos of loads of pipe on railroad cars.  I loaded a photo of a ML&T flat car with a load of corrugated pipe circa 1914.  Early for most of you, but within the time period as I understand it.

Many pipe loads in Texas are for pipelines to carry crude oil, refined petroleum products and natural gas.  Also seems to me that there are some photos of D&RGW narrow gauge cars hauling pipe for pipelines just before the lines were shut down.

Cyril Durrenberger

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Jack Burgess <jack@...> wrote:
From: Jack Burgess <jack@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Pipe loads on the cheap
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 7:54 PM











In discussing pipe types and modeling them, we need to keep a couple of

things in mind. First, which types of pipe were not manufactured locally and

thus might be shipped by rail? Iron pipe might be one type but concrete and

clay pipe might not. Second, we need to remember that we are talking about

pipe types from 60 years ago, not what is currently being used.



When I started working in a municipal engineering department in the

mid-1960s, vitrified clay pipe (VCP) was used for sanitary sewers and

probably had been for decades since it is resistant to acids and sewage. Now

days, in our area, VCP has been replaced for new installations by plastic

pipe since it is faster to install. VCP has a bell on one end with a rubber

gasket but I wonder if it was ever shipped by rail. If so, it is generally

in smaller diameters (12" is a very big sanitary sewer with 8" more typical)

and is red in color since it is made from clay. Interestingly, the Yosemite

Valley Railroad (built in 1906) had a lot of VCP storm water culverts, some

of which are still in place (but out of service <g>). These latter pipes

would have diameters from 12" to 24".



Storm water pipes are typically reinforced concrete pipe (RCP) but I'm not

sure how long RCP has been available... probably a long time. Again, I'm not

sure if it was shipped by rail. This pipe is still used and is joined via

"T&G" joints (meaning that there was no bell and one end has a female joint

with a reduced diameter on the outside of the joint area and the other end a

male joint) rather than a bell joint since leakage isn't a serious problem.

As the pipe is laid, these joints are mortared to minimize leakage. These

pipes are heavy and thus not that long. Larger diameter pipes are shorter

than smaller diameter pipes.



When I started working, water lines were laid in our area with

asbestos-cement pipe (ACP) but plastic is now used for obvious reasons. As I

recall, ACP is joined with via a "T&G" joint supplemented with a rubber

gasket. ACP was popular in areas where metallic pipes were subject to

external corrosion such as our Bay Area with salt water intrusion. Use of AC

pipe ceased due to health concerns associated with the mining, installation,

removal, and disposal of asbestos products. I guess that, due to the

location of asbestos mines vs. manufacturing plants, ACP might be shipped

via rail. ACP is typically smaller, 6-12" in diameter and white in color

with an asbestos texture. But ACP would have been widely used in the era

that we are modeling.



Natural gas lines in our area have been long been steel which is

field-welded together; there is no bell on these pipes since they were

welded together. Long distance transmission lines may be 30" or more in

diameter. There is no question that this pipe was transported by rail. We

also have a gasoline transmission line through our city which is also steel

(8" in diameter). It was originally used to transport jet fuel from a Shell

refinery to the San Jose Airport but was later used by transport gases used

in the high-tech industry but that was built outside our era.



In California, long-distance transportation of water is typical all over the

state. The early lines, such as the line from near Yosemite to serve San

Francisco, was riveted steel (60" and 76" in diameter) and without rereading

Ted Wurm's book on this construction project and its railroad, I'm not sure

that it was transported by rail but I can imagine that it was.



Ductile iron pipe is rarely used in our area due to salt intrusion below

grade. But it is extremely strong and has its advantages. It would have been

logically shipped via rail. This pipe has uses a bell joint.



One pipe type that hasn't been mentioned is galvanized corrugated metal pipe

(CMP) which is still used for storm water culverts. Because of the

specialized manufacturing processes required, these might have been shipped

by rail. Culverts range from 12" in diameter to 48" or more. Again, because

they are used for storm drain systems and water leakage isn't a problem, the

sections are joined with a collar as I recall.



In general, water line joints need to be pressure-proof and thus must have

strong joints requiring both a physical connection and a gasket. Sanitary

sewers also must not leak but aren't under pressure and bell joints work

okay. Storm drain systems don't need to be completely leak proof.



Jack Burgess

www.yosemitevalleyr r.com


























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cyril Durrenberger
 

I suggest that you all look at "Southern Pacific Freight Cars, Vol 3".  There are a number of photos taken in the 1950's of flat cars loaded with steel pipe

See pages 244,  257,  267 and 273.

Cyril Durrenberger

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Jack Burgess <jack@...> wrote:
From: Jack Burgess <jack@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Pipe loads on the cheap
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 7:54 PM











In discussing pipe types and modeling them, we need to keep a couple of

things in mind. First, which types of pipe were not manufactured locally and

thus might be shipped by rail? Iron pipe might be one type but concrete and

clay pipe might not. Second, we need to remember that we are talking about

pipe types from 60 years ago, not what is currently being used.



When I started working in a municipal engineering department in the

mid-1960s, vitrified clay pipe (VCP) was used for sanitary sewers and

probably had been for decades since it is resistant to acids and sewage. Now

days, in our area, VCP has been replaced for new installations by plastic

pipe since it is faster to install. VCP has a bell on one end with a rubber

gasket but I wonder if it was ever shipped by rail. If so, it is generally

in smaller diameters (12" is a very big sanitary sewer with 8" more typical)

and is red in color since it is made from clay. Interestingly, the Yosemite

Valley Railroad (built in 1906) had a lot of VCP storm water culverts, some

of which are still in place (but out of service <g>). These latter pipes

would have diameters from 12" to 24".



Storm water pipes are typically reinforced concrete pipe (RCP) but I'm not

sure how long RCP has been available... probably a long time. Again, I'm not

sure if it was shipped by rail. This pipe is still used and is joined via

"T&G" joints (meaning that there was no bell and one end has a female joint

with a reduced diameter on the outside of the joint area and the other end a

male joint) rather than a bell joint since leakage isn't a serious problem.

As the pipe is laid, these joints are mortared to minimize leakage. These

pipes are heavy and thus not that long. Larger diameter pipes are shorter

than smaller diameter pipes.



When I started working, water lines were laid in our area with

asbestos-cement pipe (ACP) but plastic is now used for obvious reasons. As I

recall, ACP is joined with via a "T&G" joint supplemented with a rubber

gasket. ACP was popular in areas where metallic pipes were subject to

external corrosion such as our Bay Area with salt water intrusion. Use of AC

pipe ceased due to health concerns associated with the mining, installation,

removal, and disposal of asbestos products. I guess that, due to the

location of asbestos mines vs. manufacturing plants, ACP might be shipped

via rail. ACP is typically smaller, 6-12" in diameter and white in color

with an asbestos texture. But ACP would have been widely used in the era

that we are modeling.



Natural gas lines in our area have been long been steel which is

field-welded together; there is no bell on these pipes since they were

welded together. Long distance transmission lines may be 30" or more in

diameter. There is no question that this pipe was transported by rail. We

also have a gasoline transmission line through our city which is also steel

(8" in diameter). It was originally used to transport jet fuel from a Shell

refinery to the San Jose Airport but was later used by transport gases used

in the high-tech industry but that was built outside our era.



In California, long-distance transportation of water is typical all over the

state. The early lines, such as the line from near Yosemite to serve San

Francisco, was riveted steel (60" and 76" in diameter) and without rereading

Ted Wurm's book on this construction project and its railroad, I'm not sure

that it was transported by rail but I can imagine that it was.



Ductile iron pipe is rarely used in our area due to salt intrusion below

grade. But it is extremely strong and has its advantages. It would have been

logically shipped via rail. This pipe has uses a bell joint.



One pipe type that hasn't been mentioned is galvanized corrugated metal pipe

(CMP) which is still used for storm water culverts. Because of the

specialized manufacturing processes required, these might have been shipped

by rail. Culverts range from 12" in diameter to 48" or more. Again, because

they are used for storm drain systems and water leakage isn't a problem, the

sections are joined with a collar as I recall.



In general, water line joints need to be pressure-proof and thus must have

strong joints requiring both a physical connection and a gasket. Sanitary

sewers also must not leak but aren't under pressure and bell joints work

okay. Storm drain systems don't need to be completely leak proof.



Jack Burgess

www.yosemitevalleyr r.com

Malcolm H. Houck
 

Gents,

There's bee no mention here of "Drill Pipe" as used in the petroleum
exploration and well drill drilling. This certainly was shipped via rail, given the
remote locations (distanced from mills) of many oil fields. In the era of
this list the U.S. was a major export provider of not only the oil but well
drilling equipment. My recollection is that, after oil was discovered in the
Arabian Peninsula (in the 1930's), the Port of Baltimore was a principal east
coast venue for the shipment of drill pipe. I also seem to recall photo images
of rail shipments of drill pipe on some of the Colorado narrow gauge lines for
drilling in such fields as were within the Colorado narrow gauge "circle."

Mal Houck
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
AOL.com.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)

Tim O'Connor
 

What is the typical diameter of drill pipe?

At 12/2/2008 08:45 AM Tuesday, you wrote:
Gents,

There's bee no mention here of "Drill Pipe" as used in the petroleum
exploration and well drill drilling.

John Swanson <dwlscbq@...>
 

This will bear on pipe loads.
My Father-in-Law was in charge of large plumbing crews, (as I recall) several hundred men, at Clinton Corn Processing.
He told me of working in a pit with up to 1200 PSI steam lines, caustic lines, acid lines, product lines, and so fourth running around him.
The pipes would be up to 6 feet in diameter and would often be so large that industrial cranes were required to install them.
Clinton Corn always had at least 30, repeat 30, plumbing crews working. They installed new pipe lines and replaced pipe around the plant.

I nearly hired out in the drafting department which had in excess of 20 men in the mid 1960's. The main function of the department was to measure and figure out how to fit in new piping lines and then draft the result.Pipe is a large factor in a grain processing industry.

My main point is that the wall thickness of the pipe is determined by its application.

John Swanson

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

There were several clay/brick works in this area (Beaver Falls PA) that made and shipped clay pipe and flue liners by rail. Additionally there were hardware distributors that received same.

There is/was a clay works in Sugar Creek OH that shipped pipe/liners by rail as recently as 2005 or so.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Burgess

VCP has a bell on one end with a rubber
gasket but I wonder if it was ever shipped by rail.

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

While I was at Naperville, I ate lunch at Panera Bread several times. A Canadian friend said he enjoyed eating at Panera because
their black plastic drinking straw made perfect pipe loads, as he grab a handful for his cold drink. A coat of dullcote and it was
ready. What I noticed was the Panera straw was a smaller diameter than the standard McDonalds straw, but not as small as coffee
stirrers. Might be the perfect size for drill pipe.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

Bob McCarthy
 

--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Douglas Harding <dharding@...> wrote:

From: Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pipe loads on the cheap
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 3:28 AM






While I was at Naperville, I ate lunch at Panera Bread several times. A Canadian friend said he enjoyed eating at Panera because
their black plastic drinking straw made perfect pipe loads, as he grab a handful for his cold drink. A coat of dullcote and it was
ready. What I noticed was the Panera straw was a smaller diameter than the standard McDonalds straw, but not as small as coffee
stirrers. Might be the perfect size for drill pipe.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr. org


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John F. Pautz <jfpautz@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:
What I noticed was the Panera straw was a smaller diameter than the
standard McDonalds straw, but not as small as coffee
stirrers. Might be the perfect size for drill pipe.
Drill pipe (actually tubing, as it is sized by outside diameter rather
than nominal inside diameter for pipe) was usually 2-7/8, 3-5/8, 4-5/8
inch diameter. Generally drill tubing has one end upset by approximatly
1/2 inch and is then tapped, while the other end is threaded. For
shipping the threaded end has a protective plastic cap on it.

John F. Pautz
American Switch & Signal
P:48 track components

Earl Tuson
 

Tim O' asks,

What is the typical diameter of drill pipe?
Any given well could use a range of pipe sizes.

There are actually two kinds of "pipe" involved, casing and drill pipe. You start out drilling a big hole, with a bit on the bottom of the pipe that is smaller in diameter than the hole you are drilling. Drilling fluids are pumped down through the pipe, cooling the bit and keeping pressure on the formations being drilled through. You can only go so far, or the well could begin collapsing, so you pull out, and insert casing. Casing is a larger pipe. Next, a smaller bit is selected that will fit down inside the casing placed, and drilling commences again. The inital hole size is dependent upon how deep you plan to eventually drill, which is in turn dependent on the particular formation. The largest bit I have knowledge of was a 22 1/2", but the common drill sizes are 12 1/4", 10 5/8", 8 1/2", and 6 1/2". There are additional sizes above and below that as well. I cannot recall the pipe thread sizes on the bottom of the bits, so cannot tell you what sizes the drill pipe is, but I think we only used two thread sizes on the drill sizes I listed above. Casing OD would be a bit smaller than the bit, so it could be shoved into place and then cemented on the outside. ID has to fit the next drill size. So, if you wanted to deliver a load of casing and pipe to a job and haul it all in one freight car load, half has to be one or two sizes of small drill pipe, and half has to be roughly equally divided into several sizes of larger casing.

Both the drill pipe and casing are threaded, and require protective caps during shipment. Nowadays those are plastic (bright blue, red, and so forth,) but I don't know what was used during the steam era.

Earl Tuson
former oil field drill bit engineer

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

In 1981 I worked at a plant that made thread protectors for oilfield products. They were steel. There were both internal and external types, with variations in shape and configuration, I'm guessing based on whether they were for API or NPT threads.

Another potential freight car load: We would receive (in PA ) loads of used protectors from the field (western and southwestern US) for refurbishment by pickling and chasing the threads. Even in '81 it made economic sense to do this for the large (16+ inch) sizes. In the Steam Era - when labor was cheap and material expensive, I would not be surprised to learn that all but the smallest sizes were recycled.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Earl Tuson

Both the drill pipe and casing are threaded, and require protective caps during shipment. Nowadays those are plastic (bright blue, red, and so forth,) but I don't know what was used during the steam era.