Topics

Proto 2000 Stock Car


Ray Carson
 

Hello,

I'm curious about something about the Proto 2000 stock car that I'm interested in buying from my LHS.

So most of the models seem to be painted and modeled after WWII. What modifications can I make to one to fit my year of 1939? Would they more than likely have K brakes at this time?

I'm not sure what railroads owned these stock cars, I've seen NP owned a few. What possible railroads could I fit this in?

Finally more of a general but maybe dumb question, would a stock car from let's say New York Central end up in a western state like Utah? It seems stock cars would've stayed on their own railroads but I could be wrong.

Thanks, Ray


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Ray,

The Proto 2000 car is a Mather design, and most of these were leased out by Mather to various railroads, sometimes on a long term basis. NP and GN both used Mather stock cars besides their own designs. I know PK2 offered a B&O car in their first run (I have one I've considered relettering), and their early cars were supposedly very accurate. Also offered were cars lettered for GSX, Gotham Livestock Express, which IIRC was Mather's short-term lease reporting mark. Yes, it would be possible to see a NYC stock car in Utah, but that would be very rare. Better to stick with what is more common or plausible.

Since AB brakes were not mandated until the early 1950s, yes, K-brakes are appropriate. That is not to say the Mather company wasn't already fitting their cars with AB brakes by 1939, but they were a pretty cheap outfit and kept their cars simple. You need to check photos.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 2:38 AM Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

I'm curious about something about the Proto 2000 stock car that I'm interested in buying from my LHS.

So most of the models seem to be painted and modeled after WWII. What modifications can I make to one to fit my year of 1939? Would they more than likely have K brakes at this time?

I'm not sure what railroads owned these stock cars, I've seen NP owned a few. What possible railroads could I fit this in?

Finally more of a general but maybe dumb question, would a stock car from let's say New York Central end up in a western state like Utah? It seems stock cars would've stayed on their own railroads but I could be wrong.

Thanks, Ray


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Ray and Friends,

I forgot to mention that RAILMODEL JOURNAL had articles on the Mather stock cars in their February, May and November 1997 issues. All were written by Richard Hendrickson, and so were carefully researched.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 5:54 AM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford via groups.io <mallardlodge1000=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ray,

The Proto 2000 car is a Mather design, and most of these were leased out by Mather to various railroads, sometimes on a long term basis. NP and GN both used Mather stock cars besides their own designs. I know PK2 offered a B&O car in their first run (I have one I've considered relettering), and their early cars were supposedly very accurate. Also offered were cars lettered for GSX, Gotham Livestock Express, which IIRC was Mather's short-term lease reporting mark. Yes, it would be possible to see a NYC stock car in Utah, but that would be very rare. Better to stick with what is more common or plausible.

Since AB brakes were not mandated until the early 1950s, yes, K-brakes are appropriate. That is not to say the Mather company wasn't already fitting their cars with AB brakes by 1939, but they were a pretty cheap outfit and kept their cars simple. You need to check photos.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 2:38 AM Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

I'm curious about something about the Proto 2000 stock car that I'm interested in buying from my LHS.

So most of the models seem to be painted and modeled after WWII. What modifications can I make to one to fit my year of 1939? Would they more than likely have K brakes at this time?

I'm not sure what railroads owned these stock cars, I've seen NP owned a few. What possible railroads could I fit this in?

Finally more of a general but maybe dumb question, would a stock car from let's say New York Central end up in a western state like Utah? It seems stock cars would've stayed on their own railroads but I could be wrong.

Thanks, Ray


akerboomk
 

Never thought about this before…

 

As the livestock need to be rested/watered/fed every so often, would (assuming the stock cars were off the “home” road) the road “resting” the livestock:

-       Take the opportunity to return the stock cars (to reduce per-diem), and use “home road” (or “in direction of travel”) stock cars to forward the livestock on?

-       Just leave the cars there for “X” hours, and re-load them?

-       Something else?

-       All of the above, depending on circumstances?

 

When going from “the West” to the East coast, would the stock tend to be all unloaded in the major stock yards (Chicago, St. Louis, wherever) for a time, then get re-loaded onto different cars for the trip East?

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Bob Chaparro
 

RE: Switching Livestock Cars
It is my understanding that livestock unloaded for feed/water/rest were to be returned to the same car from which they were unloaded. This was a disease control measure.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Steve SANDIFER
 

On the Santa Fe, the GENERAL practice at feeding stations was to send foreign cars home empty and move the stock to Santa Fe cars if empty cars were available. I don’t think I have seen any examples of stock being moved from one foreign road car to another foreign road car. Santa Fe was a big railroad with lots of miles of track and the largest number of stock cars. A smaller railroad with fewer cars might not have the luxury of available empty home road cars for such.

If stock arrived in a Santa Fe car, GENERALLY the animals in each deck of the car were moved to their own pen and then reloaded back into the same deck of the same car in which they arrived. The bedding would be checked and any bad messes cleaned up, but otherwise the same bedding was used for the next leg of the journey.

Major stock yard would be a different situation. When animals arrived at a Feed-Water-Rest station, they were expected to leave in 24 hours unless the owner wanted them to stay for fattening. When animals arrived at a major stock yard like Kansas City, St. Joseph, or St. Louis, that was the end of the trip.  The cars were then sent home for cleaning. However, roughly 20% or so of the cattle that arrived at a major stock yard left there for somewhere else. Maybe they were being shipped east to processors on the east coast. Maybe they were being sold to someone in the west to build a new herd, for a season of finishing, or to change the blood line in existing herds. Those would be loaded into newly bedded clean cars. That is why the NYC, PRR, and B&O had over 1000 stock cars to move animals from the Mississippi River auctions to the east coast markets. I would not expect to see many UP or ATSF stock cars east of the Mississippi though there are exceptions.

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of akerboomk
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 8:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Proto 2000 Stock Car

 

Never thought about this before…

 

As the livestock need to be rested/watered/fed every so often, would (assuming the stock cars were off the “home” road) the road “resting” the livestock:

  • Take the opportunity to return the stock cars (to reduce per-diem), and use “home road” (or “in direction of travel”) stock cars to forward the livestock on?
  • Just leave the cars there for “X” hours, and re-load them?
  • Something else?
  • All of the above, depending on circumstances?

 

When going from “the West” to the East coast, would the stock tend to be all unloaded in the major stock yards (Chicago, St. Louis, wherever) for a time, then get re-loaded onto different cars for the trip East?

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Bruce Smith
 

A couple of additional notes. 

1) Remember that stock cars carried more than stock, so their appearance could be to carry a different cargo.

2) Not all stock movements were to slaughter. There were large movements of stock from Texas to pastures in Pennsylvania (King Ranch holdings). In addition, stock cars were used to move carloads of breeding stock, and to move animals such as horses, and rodeo stock.

3) There are significant numbers of photos of western stock cars on the PRR. While these cars would have been a minority, their presence is obvious. This may relate to times of the year when the PRR's fleet was unable to cope (much like the grain rush), or it may simply relate to local availability of cars (in other words, the PRR may have 1000 cars, but there are only 10 PRR cars in the yard and they need to ship 12 carloads. I have a feeling this happened fairly often.

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, Al


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 1:38 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Proto 2000 Stock Car
 

Hello,

I'm curious about something about the Proto 2000 stock car that I'm interested in buying from my LHS.

So most of the models seem to be painted and modeled after WWII. What modifications can I make to one to fit my year of 1939? Would they more than likely have K brakes at this time?

I'm not sure what railroads owned these stock cars, I've seen NP owned a few. What possible railroads could I fit this in?

Finally more of a general but maybe dumb question, would a stock car from let's say New York Central end up in a western state like Utah? It seems stock cars would've stayed on their own railroads but I could be wrong.

Thanks, Ray


Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

 I know PK2 offered a B&O car in their first run (I have one I've considered relettering), and their early cars were supposedly very accurate. 

    The original P2k releases were ALL based on Richard Hendrickson's recommendations. In their last years, a few foobles crept in, and with Walthers -- well. But you can trust the originals.

Tony Thompson




Richard Wilkens
 

I have attached a photo showing a New York Central stock car as well as a couple Northern Pacific, and at least one Great Northern, can't identify the other cars. This is at Wishram, Washington on the Spokane, Portland & Seattle and was taken around 1948. The stock pens at Wishram were around the curve in the background on the right hand side. 

Rich Wilkens


Steve SANDIFER
 

It is important to check the ORER for your modeling era. Just because the Proto paint scheme may be correct does not mean that car was leased to that railroad at the time you model.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 12:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Proto 2000 Stock Car

 

Garth Groff wrote:



 I know PK2 offered a B&O car in their first run (I have one I've considered relettering), and their early cars were supposedly very accurate. 

 

    The original P2k releases were ALL based on Richard Hendrickson's recommendations. In their last years, a few foobles crept in, and with Walthers -- well. But you can trust the originals.

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Chet
 

The Wabash reloaded livestock into home road cars at Kansas City and perhaps Council Bluffs and released western road car back home.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Bill Welch
 
Edited

Circa 1939 photos I own show L&N and CNW Mather stock cars with truss rod u/f.

Bill Welch


Ray Breyer
 

Yes and no. Those original 40 foot Mather stock cars were stretched 36-footers, which they had too many of and which nobody wanted to lease. They started stretching them around 1928, but forgot that the center sills were a bit small (6" C channel, IIRC). They tended to sag a little too much, so Mather added two trussrods along the center sill to strengthen it (traditionally, trussrods are used to hold an all-wood BODY together, not a steel frame).

By the early Depression years the stretched cars, and the newly built 40-footers, had a stronger underframe, and the trussrods were eliminated. I have a few photos of WWII-era Mather cars that still have the rods, mostly on long term lease C&NW cars.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



On Monday, September 21, 2020, 06:08:54 AM CDT, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:


[Edited Message Follows]

Circa 1939 photos I own show L&N and CNW Mather stock cars with truss rod u/f.

Bill Welch


Ray Carson
 

Thanks everyone for your responses, they are very helpful. If the kit is still at my LHS, then I may get it.

The general stock car practices are also useful.

-Ray


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Ray,

You should be able to find some of these at a train show (if we ever have them again!), or on eBay. The stock cars don't seem to have sold particularly well, and lots of them got dumped on the outlet markets.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:31 PM Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Thanks everyone for your responses, they are very helpful. If the kit is still at my LHS, then I may get it.

The general stock car practices are also useful.

-Ray


Allan Smith
 


I have two Mather Stock Car Kits 1 GSX 4048 and 1 GM&O 109028 that I will sell for $15 each plus shipping if anyone is interested. Both are new in the box. These are Mather 40' Double Deck Stock Cars

Please contact me off list Smithal9@...

Al Smith

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020, 03:23:01 AM PDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Ray,

You should be able to find some of these at a train show (if we ever have them again!), or on eBay. The stock cars don't seem to have sold particularly well, and lots of them got dumped on the outlet markets.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:31 PM Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Thanks everyone for your responses, they are very helpful. If the kit is still at my LHS, then I may get it.

The general stock car practices are also useful.

-Ray


Rich Yoder
 

Hi Ray,

What’s your source of information for the “Stretching of the 36” Mather stock cars to 40”?

Rich Yoder

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 5:23 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Proto 2000 Stock Car

 

Yes and no. Those original 40 foot Mather stock cars were stretched 36-footers, which they had too many of and which nobody wanted to lease. They started stretching them around 1928, but forgot that the center sills were a bit small (6" C channel, IIRC). They tended to sag a little too much, so Mather added two trussrods along the center sill to strengthen it (traditionally, trussrods are used to hold an all-wood BODY together, not a steel frame).

 

By the early Depression years the stretched cars, and the newly built 40-footers, had a stronger underframe, and the trussrods were eliminated. I have a few photos of WWII-era Mather cars that still have the rods, mostly on long term lease C&NW cars.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 

 

On Monday, September 21, 2020, 06:08:54 AM CDT, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

 

 

[Edited Message Follows]

Circa 1939 photos I own show L&N and CNW Mather stock cars with truss rod u/f.

Bill Welch


Ray Breyer
 

Hi Rich, 

Lots of reasearch. I'm currently looking at the Mather fleet from 1880 on, and am slowly compiling data (slowly, since their company records don't exist. I'm having to read basically every page from every ORER and trade magazine looking for clues. Once that's done I'll read through all of the ICC Val Reports. MCBA, ARA, and ICC reports are also being waded through).

Richard's pieces on the Mather fleet really don't start until WWII; I'm focusing on what happened before that. As the third largest private car fleet, Mather deserves a real examination. Once done, I'll probably "publish" on Eric Hansmann's blog.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 12:17:33 PM CDT, Rich Yoder <oscale48@...> wrote:


Hi Ray,

What’s your source of information for the “Stretching of the 36” Mather stock cars to 40”?

Rich Yoder

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 5:23 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Proto 2000 Stock Car

 

Yes and no. Those original 40 foot Mather stock cars were stretched 36-footers, which they had too many of and which nobody wanted to lease. They started stretching them around 1928, but forgot that the center sills were a bit small (6" C channel, IIRC). They tended to sag a little too much, so Mather added two trussrods along the center sill to strengthen it (traditionally, trussrods are used to hold an all-wood BODY together, not a steel frame).

 

By the early Depression years the stretched cars, and the newly built 40-footers, had a stronger underframe, and the trussrods were eliminated. I have a few photos of WWII-era Mather cars that still have the rods, mostly on long term lease C&NW cars.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 

 

On Monday, September 21, 2020, 06:08:54 AM CDT, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

 

 

[Edited Message Follows]

Circa 1939 photos I own show L&N and CNW Mather stock cars with truss rod u/f.

Bill Welch