Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question


Jim Mischke
 



Regarding the past Rapido USRA double sheath boxcar and upcoming USRA single sheath boxcar release ..... and I am having trouble finding any road names for such boxcars that lasted up to and past 1960 in their original hardware appearance in general interchange.   AB brakes replaced K-brakes of course.   Plenty were rebuilt with aftermarket sides, not yet Rapido offerings.

Some ORER entries within and past this group's 1920-60 base timeline show several hardy CNJ USRA single-sheath boxcars still around, yet they may have been in lead-zinc service between the two Palmerton, NJ. smelters, a very short on-line move.

Some TH&B double-sheath boxcars were still around in yellow paint, yet they may have been operating on-line LCL service.

B&O's M-24 USRA single sheath boxcars were converted en masse to company service about 1953 or so.  They lasted a long time yet were not in revenue service anymore.   The last M-24a/b boxcars equippped with hoppers for cement loading lost their jobs about 1958.

Insights about long-lived USRA wood boxcars in an original hardware appearance would be welcome.











Eric Hansmann
 

Two key articles on these USRA box cars were published in a couple of Railway Prototype Cyclopedia volumes. Both of these efforts are above and beyond any previous coverage.

RPCyc Vol 16 has 53 pages of data and photos covering the USRA Double-Sheathed box cars.

RPCyc Vol 17 has 51 pages of data and photos covering the USRA Single-Sheathed box cars and rebuilds.

I would be very surprised if these resources were not being used by the Rapido development team. There are probably other prototype photos of these cars that were not published in these volumes, but additional usage and ownership data would be minimal.

Have you asked if they are using these RPCyc volumes?

If these details spark curiosity among readers, you can download and review an RPCyc article index PDF from the Helpful Links page of the Resin Car Works blog. Scroll down a bit to the Prototype Resources links.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On 05/12/2022 9:58 PM Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:




Regarding the past Rapido USRA double sheath boxcar and upcoming USRA single sheath boxcar release ..... and I am having trouble finding any road names for such boxcars that lasted up to and past 1960 in their original hardware appearance in general interchange.   AB brakes replaced K-brakes of course.   Plenty were rebuilt with aftermarket sides, not yet Rapido offerings.

Some ORER entries within and past this group's 1920-60 base timeline show several hardy CNJ USRA single-sheath boxcars still around, yet they may have been in lead-zinc service between the two Palmerton, NJ. smelters, a very short on-line move.

Some TH&B double-sheath boxcars were still around in yellow paint, yet they may have been operating on-line LCL service.

B&O's M-24 USRA single sheath boxcars were converted en masse to company service about 1953 or so.  They lasted a long time yet were not in revenue service anymore.   The last M-24a/b boxcars equippped with hoppers for cement loading lost their jobs about 1958.

Insights about long-lived USRA wood boxcars in an original hardware appearance would be welcome.













Brian Carlson
 

You can’t find any in the 60’s or later because they just didn’t last that long unmodified. 

TH&B cars were long lived into the 50’s but they were an exception. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On May 12, 2022, at 11:58 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:



Regarding the past Rapido USRA double sheath boxcar and upcoming USRA single sheath boxcar release ..... and I am having trouble finding any road names for such boxcars that lasted up to and past 1960 in their original hardware appearance in general interchange.   AB brakes replaced K-brakes of course.   Plenty were rebuilt with aftermarket sides, not yet Rapido offerings.

Some ORER entries within and past this group's 1920-60 base timeline show several hardy CNJ USRA single-sheath boxcars still around, yet they may have been in lead-zinc service between the two Palmerton, NJ. smelters, a very short on-line move.

Some TH&B double-sheath boxcars were still around in yellow paint, yet they may have been operating on-line LCL service.

B&O's M-24 USRA single sheath boxcars were converted en masse to company service about 1953 or so.  They lasted a long time yet were not in revenue service anymore.   The last M-24a/b boxcars equippped with hoppers for cement loading lost their jobs about 1958.

Insights about long-lived USRA wood boxcars in an original hardware appearance would be welcome.











--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Jim Mischke
 



Eric,


I find that the RPCycs cut off at 1960.   By publisher and author expressed intent.    Like a certain freight car group.

There is no information about freight car lives beyond 1960 in images or narrative.  Not even a hint.

If a researcher seeks 1960's information on old freight cars, one must build on an RPCyc article with additoinal research.

Certainly Rapido used all available resources in their product research.   I would surmise that we might see more USRA-derived boxcars from Rapido.   As prolific as they are, they do not mind some tooling commonalities.    I have no inside information on this.


Jim




Tim O'Connor
 


I don't know of any USRA double sheathed cars that survived un-rebuilt in the 1960's. There
were still a few all-steel rebuilds but that's a whole other subject.

The only single sheathed USRA cars I know survived more or less intact into the 1960's were
the D&H cement cars which received hatches and hopper bottoms. (Tichy kit)

Tim O'Connor

On 5/14/2022 3:37 AM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Eric,

I find that the RPCycs cut off at 1960.   By publisher and author expressed intent.    Like a certain freight car group.

There is no information about freight car lives beyond 1960 in images or narrative.  Not even a hint.

If a researcher seeks 1960's information on old freight cars, one must build on an RPCyc article with additoinal research.

Certainly Rapido used all available resources in their product research.   I would surmise that we might see more USRA-derived boxcars from Rapido.   As prolific as they are, they do not mind some tooling commonalities.    I have no inside information on this.

Jim

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Brian Carlson
 

Based on ORER data 3 Pennsy X26 made 1963 in revenue series. However, I’d take that with a grain of salt. They probably weren’t actually in service, just stored not yet white-lined. 

Face it, unmodified USRA cars in the 60’s are unlikely. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On May 14, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I don't know of any USRA double sheathed cars that survived un-rebuilt in the 1960's. There
were still a few all-steel rebuilds but that's a whole other subject.

The only single sheathed USRA cars I know survived more or less intact into the 1960's were
the D&H cement cars which received hatches and hopper bottoms. (Tichy kit)

Tim O'Connor

On 5/14/2022 3:37 AM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Eric,

I find that the RPCycs cut off at 1960.   By publisher and author expressed intent.    Like a certain freight car group.

There is no information about freight car lives beyond 1960 in images or narrative.  Not even a hint.

If a researcher seeks 1960's information on old freight cars, one must build on an RPCyc article with additoinal research.

Certainly Rapido used all available resources in their product research.   I would surmise that we might see more USRA-derived boxcars from Rapido.   As prolific as they are, they do not mind some tooling commonalities.    I have no inside information on this.

Jim

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Tim O'Connor
 


I love the stencil on this one in 1972 - It's an X26F rebuild of course, but it's age hasn't changed. :-)


On 5/14/2022 10:13 AM, Brian Carlson via groups.io wrote:
Based on ORER data 3 Pennsy X26 made 1963 in revenue series. However, I’d take that with a grain of salt. They probably weren’t actually in service, just stored not yet white-lined. 

Face it, unmodified USRA cars in the 60’s are unlikely. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On May 14, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I don't know of any USRA double sheathed cars that survived un-rebuilt in the 1960's. There
were still a few all-steel rebuilds but that's a whole other subject.

The only single sheathed USRA cars I know survived more or less intact into the 1960's were
the D&H cement cars which received hatches and hopper bottoms. (Tichy kit)

Tim O'Connor

On 5/14/2022 3:37 AM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Eric,

I find that the RPCycs cut off at 1960.   By publisher and author expressed intent.    Like a certain freight car group.

There is no information about freight car lives beyond 1960 in images or narrative.  Not even a hint.

If a researcher seeks 1960's information on old freight cars, one must build on an RPCyc article with additoinal research.

Certainly Rapido used all available resources in their product research.   I would surmise that we might see more USRA-derived boxcars from Rapido.   As prolific as they are, they do not mind some tooling commonalities.    I have no inside information on this.

Jim


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Gavin
 

If I recall correctly, the Canadian Pacific clones survived in original form until the 80s in OCS service, being used for grain prior to that. But as that's mainly online service in Canada, I don't think that would help you all that much.


Eric Lombard
 

Good Morning, Jim

Insights about long-lived USRA wood boxcars in an original hardware appearance would be welcome.

Attached is an excel export from my box car database that contains data on 8838 series of box cars (and counting). 35 series were found that might be a beginning seed related to your appeal for information.

This result must be viewed with missing data in mind. Resources available may or may not have contained information on the application of new roofs, doors, and hand brake wheels and brake steps. Some of the 35 series may include information of this sort but each needs to be reviewed in detail which I have not done. In addition, several series. not included here, where ORER counts have not yet been determined past the '50s may produce additional cars for the '60s. This can become a happy small project for me if the possibility of additional series are valuable to you. Let me know off line. The database can also produce for each series the bibliography used as well as citations for published photographs

Double click on any cell to see all data in the cell. Export from the database to excel sometimes introduces errors in formatting and data. A review of this export indicates formatting errors are common in the "Service" field. These errors do not prohibit understanding but require a bit of contemplation at times. A workaround is to copy a service field and paste it into a text file. 

Hope this is useful to you.

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:58 PM Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:


Regarding the past Rapido USRA double sheath boxcar and upcoming USRA single sheath boxcar release ..... and I am having trouble finding any road names for such boxcars that lasted up to and past 1960 in their original hardware appearance in general interchange.   AB brakes replaced K-brakes of course.   Plenty were rebuilt with aftermarket sides, not yet Rapido offerings.

Some ORER entries within and past this group's 1920-60 base timeline show several hardy CNJ USRA single-sheath boxcars still around, yet they may have been in lead-zinc service between the two Palmerton, NJ. smelters, a very short on-line move.

Some TH&B double-sheath boxcars were still around in yellow paint, yet they may have been operating on-line LCL service.

B&O's M-24 USRA single sheath boxcars were converted en masse to company service about 1953 or so.  They lasted a long time yet were not in revenue service anymore.   The last M-24a/b boxcars equippped with hoppers for cement loading lost their jobs about 1958.

Insights about long-lived USRA wood boxcars in an original hardware appearance would be welcome.











Robert Heninger
 

Tim,

None of the GN’s USRA or clone DS cars were ever rebuilt as steel cars, and remained in revenue service into the 1960s. I have photos of them in MOW service in the BN era, Murphy XLA roof intact.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND


Tim O'Connor
 

Bob

Do you know of published photos of them in the 1960's? I've seen lots of photos of the 1930's AAR
double sheathed cars well into the 1970's, but not the 1920's cars.

On 5/14/2022 2:06 PM, Robert Heninger wrote:
Tim,

None of the GN’s USRA or clone DS cars were ever rebuilt as steel cars, and remained in revenue service into the 1960s. I have photos of them in MOW service in the BN era, Murphy XLA roof intact.

Regards,
Bob Heninger


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Robert Heninger
 

Tim,

There's a Dick Kuelbs photo of GN 25947 on the MKT in Dallas, TX in 1961 on page 17 of Great Northern Equipment Color Pictorial, Book One - Box Cars and Stock Cars, by Scott R. Thompson. Granted, this is a USRA clone built 1923, but it is in revenue service, and is not labeled for hide service.

There's a J.W. Mathews photo of GN 25063 (a clone) at Wenatchee, WA in March of 1961, from Richard Hendrickson's collection published on page 138 of the Second Edition of Lines East, by Patrick C. Dorin. It is in revenue service, not labeled for hide service.

I have a photo in my collection of  GN 24667, which is one of the USRA cars, with a 4-62 reweigh date, taken 1962 in Baltimore, MD, by Joe Collias. This car too is in revenue service, and is not stenciled for hide service.

I do have a Joe Collias photo of GN 25183, one of the clones, taken in 1963 in Watertown, SD, labeled for hide service. 

The cars are all in the postwar overall mineral red scheme, with the "Great Northern Railway" herald.

One caveat: GN did replace the grab iron "ladders" on the cars with actual ladders in a post-WWII reconditioning of the cars, but they kept their wood running boards and Murphy XLA roofs.

The GN did use these two series as stock for 1950s rebuilding programs that resulted in stock cars, and many were converted to MOW bunk cars, etc. in the 1950s, but my July 1960 ORER lists 264 of the USRA cars and 367 of the USRA clones in revenue service.

These are the latest surviving revenue service wood sheathed USRA cars I am aware of.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND 


Tim O'Connor
 


Thanks for that! I knew I bought that Westerfield GN kit all those years ago for a good reason, as
I was modeling up to 1960 then. But now in 1973 I expect they're gone - at the 50 year limit if for
no other reason.



On 5/14/2022 5:06 PM, Robert Heninger wrote:
Tim,

There's a Dick Kuelbs photo of GN 25947 on the MKT in Dallas, TX in 1961 on page 17 of Great Northern Equipment Color Pictorial, Book One - Box Cars and Stock Cars, by Scott R. Thompson. Granted, this is a USRA clone built 1923, but it is in revenue service, and is not labeled for hide service.

There's a J.W. Mathews photo of GN 25063 (a clone) at Wenatchee, WA in March of 1961, from Richard Hendrickson's collection published on page 138 of the Second Edition of Lines East, by Patrick C. Dorin. It is in revenue service, not labeled for hide service.

I have a photo in my collection of  GN 24667, which is one of the USRA cars, with a 4-62 reweigh date, taken 1962 in Baltimore, MD, by Joe Collias. This car too is in revenue service, and is not stenciled for hide service.

I do have a Joe Collias photo of GN 25183, one of the clones, taken in 1963 in Watertown, SD, labeled for hide service. 

The cars are all in the postwar overall mineral red scheme, with the "Great Northern Railway" herald.

One caveat: GN did replace the grab iron "ladders" on the cars with actual ladders in a post-WWII reconditioning of the cars, but they kept their wood running boards and Murphy XLA roofs.

The GN did use these two series as stock for 1950s rebuilding programs that resulted in stock cars, and many were converted to MOW bunk cars, etc. in the 1950s, but my July 1960 ORER lists 264 of the USRA cars and 367 of the USRA clones in revenue service.

These are the latest surviving revenue service wood sheathed USRA cars I am aware of.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


John Riddell
 

Jim,

In July 1965 there were still 12 USRA DS boxcars in revenue service for the TH&B.

John Riddell


Ted Larson
 

As a kid I watched many GN trains go through town full of old SS and DS cars.  For online grain service they could have been at work past their interchange life? 




--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


Allen Cain
 

What industries would have been receiving dry ice reefers in the mid 1950s?

--
Allen Cain
Modeling The Southern RR in 1955 in HO Scale

--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale


 

Perhaps it’s time to change the subject line?

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, May 16, 2022 at 8:24 AM
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

What industries would have been receiving dry ice reefers in the mid 1950s?

 

--

Allen Cain

Modeling The Southern RR in 1955 in HO Scale


--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale


wrlyders
 

This thread seems to have morphed into a “which single and double sheathed box cars cars made it thru the Transition era into the 60s”.

 

I have done some searches on sheathed box cars and know they were built in the 1910s thru WWII and lasted into the 50s.

 

I have a Northeastern Models single sheathed box car to build.

 

But I have a more basic question: What is a single sheathed box car vs. a double sheathed box car”? What is the sheathing?

 

Thanks, Bill

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ted Larson via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2022 7:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

As a kid I watched many GN trains go through town full of old SS and DS cars.  For online grain service they could have been at work past their interchange life? 



--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


Bruce Smith
 

Bill,


First, we’re really talking about cars with composite (steel and wood) or wood superstructures. While wood sheathing is applied to the interior of steel cars, they are not referred to as “double sheathed”, even if they really are. The sheathing consists of boards that are used to create the walls, floor, and sometimes roof, of the car.  On a single sheathed car, there is typically a single layer of boards that form both the inside lining and the outside “sheathing” of the car. These were typically attached to the inside of the metal superstructure (bracing) of the car, generating the modeling term “outside braced boxcar”.  On a double sheathed car, sheathing was attached to both the inside (liner) and outside (car body sheathing) of the car superstructure bracing. This provided greater protection from the weather for delicate loads that needed to be kept dry. In addition, it might be insulated, providing some level of temperature control.


Thus, on a practical level, single sheathed cars can be recognized by the visible exterior bracing, while double sheathed cars typically have a wood sided exterior with the bracing hidden behind the sheathing.

 

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "wrlyders via groups.io" <blyders@...>
Reply-To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, May 16, 2022 at 11:53 AM
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

This thread seems to have morphed into a “which single and double sheathed box cars cars made it thru the Transition era into the 60s”.

 

I have done some searches on sheathed box cars and know they were built in the 1910s thru WWII and lasted into the 50s.

 

I have a Northeastern Models single sheathed box car to build.

 

But I have a more basic question: What is a single sheathed box car vs. a double sheathed box car”? What is the sheathing?

 

Thanks, Bill

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ted Larson via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2022 7:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

As a kid I watched many GN trains go through town full of old SS and DS cars.  For online grain service they could have been at work past their interchange life? 




--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


np328
 

        Here (attached) are my railroads observations on single vs double sheathed from about 100 years ago. 
Of the fifth listed reason for double sheathing, one must recall that at the time, the billboard ban on freight cars was well into the future.  
Source of this are the corporate records found at the Minnesota Historical Society.                              James Dick - Roseville, MN