Topics

Ratios

Armand Premo
 

I would like to open the topic of ratios and how they might be used to develop a realistic roster for the specific era,road and locations Armand Premo

Bruce Smith
 

Armand,

Still don’t believe (or remember) what you have been repeatedly told here over the past, what 20 years or so?

It’s really simple… estimates are as follows (and these estimates are based on hard numbers):

Home Road house cars - 25%
Home Road gondolas - 50%
Home Road hoppers - 75%

Foreign road house cars - distributed essentially in the national fleet percentages
Foreign road flat cars - national fleet percentages
Reefers - if originating traffic, nearly (but not completely) 100% “home” road (ie, the associated company, SFRD for ATSF, PFE for SP and UP, etc)
if receiving traffic, closer to national fleet numbers
if modeling WWII, national fleet numbers for everything
Tank cars - very era dependent, but typically regional, unless modeling WWII tank car trains
Foreign road gondolas - regional railroads
Foreign road hoppers - nearest neighbors, but often very specific for location, connection, and cargo. e.g C&O and N&W cars interchanged onto the PRR on Lines West for delivery to the great lakes, but almost never seen on Lines East PRR (except during WWII).

Exceptions - lines with specific traffic (most often branch lines), where the cars needed might be in pool service such as automobile manufacturing.

Note bene: These are FLEET percentage, so before Mike Brock has to post yet another disclaimer about trains full of  SP cars on the UP, these numbers DO NOT apply to every train, but rather to the aggregate total of cars. So, for example, trains on my (proposed) layout on the PRR stopping to interchange cars in Columbia PA with the READING will have a higher than national average percentage of READING cars to reflect that local traffic, but the rest of the trains will have almost none, since READING traffic of that nature was unlikely to be seen going past an interchange and my overall READING percentage will be just about the national fleet number!

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Sep 13, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...> wrote:

I would like to open the topic of ratios and how they might be used to develop a realistic roster for the specific era,road and locations Armand Premo

anthony wagner
 

Armand, I'm with you but this is not for casual modelers since it requires a significant amount of research. I have developed a modeling roster for the PRR in the Williamsport PA area circa 1949 using my 1-1-50 ORER and other sources specific to the Pennsy. It is not set in stone since relevant info pops up now and then and requires adjustment to what had been previously thought. Invaluable for context is an article published in Mainline Modeler Jan 1995 by John Nehrich using stats from April 1950 as published in Railway Age entitled Freight Operating Statistics of Large Steam Railways compiled by the Bureau of Transport Economics & Statistics of the ICC. In January 1950 according to my ORER PRR had 208699 freight cars in revenue service and according to the ICC table of the 218699 freight cars on Pennsy in April 107924 were home road cars and 110775 were foreign or roughly 50% of the total. Also extremely valuable is a Sept 1948 copy of the Williamsport ETT (Employee, not public, Timetable) which has arranged freight train symbols and approximate times of arrival and departure for the Williamsport Division. Those symbol trains were run as extras, not as regularly scheduled trains. A further consideration is the proximity of direct connections with foreign roads and the amount of interchange as well as local industry. In Williamsport the Pennsy interchanged with the Reading, the New York Central, and with the Erie which had trackage rights on NYC and used that road's Newberry yard. There were 2 daily symbol trains , EC-1 and EC-3 that had NYC blocks out of Enola and cutoff times for interchange. Another daily symbol train EN-3 ran from Enola to Williamsport and terminated so it probably had cars for local industries. This is all by way of showing how something seemingly simple can quickly mushroom into an immensely complicated project. There is a ton of information out there but the trick is finding it and then putting it in a usable form. Tony Wagner

On Friday, September 13, 2019, 10:43:27 AM CDT, Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...> wrote:


I would like to open the topic of ratios and how they might be used to develop a realistic roster for the specific era,road and locations Armand Premo

Armand Premo
 

Ratios varied from decade to decade, I have felt that the wood to steel ratio was important,at least to me.I had too many steel cars because that was all that was available.at that time.Armand Premo

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Dave Nelson
 

The work that I did with Tim Gilbert 20 odd years ago was very specific to WWII to around 1956, mainline trunk routes, initially for boxcars and then flatcars too.  We had far too little data for before WWII or after the mid 50’s to even murmur speculative numbers.

 

That said, it was always my working assumption that WWII really scattered the boxcar fleet. It seems reasonable that the economic collapse of the great depression may have had the opposite effect.  Before that… who knows? 

YMMV.

 

For your specific question I think the answer may be found in the ICC Blue books of whatever era you are interested in.  If Tim were still with us he’d know for sure… and probably provide you with the answer.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Armand Premo
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:40 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ratios

 

Ratios varied from decade to decade, I have felt that the wood to steel ratio was important,at least to me.I had too many steel cars because that was all that was available.at that time.Armand Premo

np328
 

I would and still take the word of anything Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert did as gospel.  After that, I support Bruce Smith's reply to get further clarity.  
Seeing Tony Wagner's post, yes it may well  require a goodly amount of research on your part. How you look upon doing that will affect how deeply you want to dig. 

  
Set some significant time aside, grab your favorite beverage and search this list for Nelson-Gilbert or Gilbert-Nelson, and the same letters without the dash or hyphen "-".  Read all of those. They provide a good start without leaving your chair.   

Brian Carlson did an excellent presentation years (a decade or two ago by now) at CCB. It inspired me to follow his example and later do a presentation at Naperville Sunshine, and the following CCB titled Closer to the Rail Head. 

In a few words, taking the above research by Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert, and using the reasoning Bruce put forth, that gets you a national balance. Then determine the geographic parameters, of the overall rail division you want to model. Search that area for major industries in that area or just beyond.  And interchanges. That will get regional flavor. 

And the time frame you model affects things.  As has been stated here repeatedly, the closer you can get a year, season, month, as a setpoint, the more valid your data search as applied will be.

    I model the Twin Cities - Twin Ports, late September of 1953 and what did I find?   At first I thought it would be heavy northbound grain trains of 40 foot boxcars to the ports, and in some manner - it was that. 
     However, and here is where the local major industries had effect, there was heavier coal traffic coming south for domestic and commercial heating than the grain going north. Something that would taper off by the late 50s as homes switched to natural gas. (Hence the importance of timeframe.)  Still that coal traffic south, via hopper, gon, and boxcars was the major tonnage in either direction and helped determine my car purchases. 
   
     A steel mill in the Duluth area that sent pig iron ingots south via gons, in addition to boxcar loads of wire and nails southbound in significant amounts entered in.

   
     There was a pipeline running east to west through both the Twin Cities and Twin Ports and they balanced transfers between the pipelines via rail in tank cars, in significant numbers. I need to clarify, both pipelines had transfer points directly on or adjacent to my railroad. Also as I have posted here prior, some tank cars loaded from Montana and Wyoming to Minnesota, enough that it enters in as a traffic factor to me.

    
     A surprise was meat, there were the St. Paul stockyards and several meat distribution offices in Duluth. Swift, Armour, and others. That in addition to a slaughter house in West Duluth which meant stock cars northbound. From the St. Paul stockyards went carloads of meat for export via ship. How or why did they do that? I don't need to know, all I needed was the carload numbers of meat reefers.  

    The connection from Canada via the DW&P into Duluth was significant, as I have posted to this list before, 44 cars per day on average on my railroad, CN cars, mostly of newsprint, going south loaded, and returning empty. I bought a whole bunch of CN TLT cars for representation there. 
   
    All of this affected my balance of the purchase of gons, hoppers, reefers, tank cars, in addition to boxcars. 

And all found through research.
         
        How deeply do you want to research, that depends and is up to you. I will add that there were several branch lines off the above Twin Ports -Twin Cities. The Grantsburg branch and the Stillwater branch were two of those. The Stillwater branch connected with the Omaha and Milwaukee at Stillwater, MN. There was pulpwood that came off the Grantsburg branch, then went south to the Stillwater branch, and was transported by prior named connections to papermills in central Wisconsin. Again, something that affects modeled traffic.     

Of steel vs wood sided, I cannot give you a clear answer. Other have posted on wood vs steel car by year. You'll just have to search this list for those posts and that data.
However Mike Brock himself posted this in the files https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/DS-SS-Steel%20Split%201938%20to%201950%20Summary.xls   

           Perhaps if you named your region and date frame modeled, others could help.                                     Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 

Armand Premo
 



On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:19 PM Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Armand,

Still don’t believe (or remember) what you have been repeatedly told here over the past, what 20 years or so?

It’s really simple… estimates are as follows (and these estimates are based on hard numbers):

Home Road house cars - 25%
Home Road gondolas - 50%
Home Road hoppers - 75%

Foreign road house cars - distributed essentially in the national fleet percentages
Foreign road flat cars - national fleet percentages
Reefers - if originating traffic, nearly (but not completely) 100% “home” road (ie, the associated company, SFRD for ATSF, PFE for SP and UP, etc)
if receiving traffic, closer to national fleet numbers
if modeling WWII, national fleet numbers for everything
Tank cars - very era dependent, but typically regional, unless modeling WWII tank car trains
Foreign road gondolas - regional railroads
Foreign road hoppers - nearest neighbors, but often very specific for location, connection, and cargo. e.g C&O and N&W cars interchanged onto the PRR on Lines West for delivery to the great lakes, but almost never seen on Lines East PRR (except during WWII).

Exceptions - lines with specific traffic (most often branch lines), where the cars needed might be in pool service such as automobile manufacturing.

Note bene: These are FLEET percentage, so before Mike Brock has to post yet another disclaimer about trains full of  SP cars on the UP, these numbers DO NOT apply to every train, but rather to the aggregate total of cars. So, for example, trains on my (proposed) layout on the PRR stopping to interchange cars in Columbia PA with the READING will have a higher than national average percentage of READING cars to reflect that local traffic, but the rest of the trains will have almost none, since READING traffic of that nature was unlikely to be seen going past an interchange and my overall READING percentage will be just about the national fleet number!

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Sep 13, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...> wrote:

I would like to open the topic of ratios and how they might be used to develop a realistic roster for the specific era,road and locations Armand Premo

Hugh Guillaume
 

Like most people, I have far more rolling stock than will fit onto my model railroad.  To determine how many freight cars to place on the tracks I calculated the capacity of all sidings - yard, passing and industrial based on 40' cars - and divided that in half to set the maximum number of cars to be on the railroad at one time.  My model railroad is based on an NYC single-track branch line to a coal mine so I have more NYC cars than other roads.  Also, I have no refrigerator cars because I have no on-line industry that would use reefers.  The coal mine has a capacity of nine two-bay hoppers so I need only eighteen hoppers.  I have one retail coal yard so I need two hoppers from roads that serviced anthracite mines - one load and one empty.  I used information that I found years ago in magazine articles to determine how many foreign road cars to have on the roster.  It all worked out well because my model railroad is not clogged with cars, there is no gridlock anywhere.  Like prototype railroads, my model railroad has lots of empty track which I think enhances the realism.  Too many model railroads have too much track and way too many cars and locomotives.  On my model railroad there are four NYC GP-7 locomotives and four NYC cabooses.  Passenger service was discontinued.  The era is 1953 with no rolling stock or vehicles any newer than 1953.  Discussing ratios is an excellent topic, by the way!!!

Randy Hammill
 

Although I generally agree with the Gilbert-Nelson approach, along with Bruce Smith’s percentages, they are very dependent upon the road you model. 

Bruce models the PRR, so 75% home road hoppers on any coal hauling road makes sense. But I model the NH that has a modest fleet of hoppers of less than 1,000, with little originating traffic that would send them offline. So home road hoppers make up a very small part of my fleet.

Understanding your road’s traffic is very important. For example, as much as 60% of the coal entering CT in my era was by water. That appears to have been Pocahontas and other bituminous coming through Baltimore, and I think was the primary source of coal loaded in NH hoppers to be distributed to industry, but particularly the railroad’s facilities. On the other hand, anthracite came primarily via Maybrook, unless you were in the vicinity of NYC, in which case it came mostly by float via Jersey City and Greenville. So I go with the anthracite hoppers as a mix of 75% home road of their loading point.

So the mix of hoppers is very dependent on whether you’re modeling a coal road or not, I think.

Gondolas and flats are the same, and since the NH was heavily involved in manufacturing, gondolas were also predominantly foreign. Like the hoppers, I think gondolas and flats are far more dependent on the home road of the loading point. 

I also think we often have too little variety (and too few) “rare” cars. I have two pictures, from different days, with ATSF Ga-8 gons, and these weren’t photographed because of their rarity, they just happened to be on those trains. Likewise the photos of the Litchfield & Madison gondola in New Britain. Numerous pictures of C&I hoppers, etc.

I’m not saying those happen every day, but based on those and many, many other photos that have “rare” cars (often in the background) show that there’s a wider variety than many allow. I think we often make the mistake of not having enough different “rare” cars to mix in, making the couple of rare cars that are owned very common on our layouts.

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com

Jason Kliewer
 

I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

Jason Kliewer

Brian Carlson
 

The G-N or N-G data really only works up to the mid 1950s. This is well stated in the analyses done by Tim and Dave.  Once you get later things changed, piggyback, specialized boxcars, specific service, older cars on the books but stored all over the place (looking at you Pennsy), etc. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Sep 15, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Jason Kliewer <wcfn100@...> wrote:

I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

Jason Kliewer

Tony Thompson
 

Jason Kliewer wrote:

I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

     One factor to consider in evaluating any road is what their proportion was, of originating vs. terminating traffic. One example is the BAR, which originated far more traffic than it received, fully 85 percent of all traffic was originated. This meant that they had to own a big car fleet to serve their shippers.
     A bridge route like the UP was almost the opposite.
     I discussed a Car Service article from the BAR as a part of one of my blog posts a couple of weeks ago, and provided a link to the BAR employee magazine about this. If you're interested, here is a link.


Tony Thompson



Tim O'Connor
 

Jason

I think at least SOME of Tim Gilbert's data was not from train lists, but from "cars on hand"
data - some railroads published this kind of data e.g. Great Northern annual reports. A railroad
might have a good supply of home road cars "on hand" that were just waiting for assignments, or
waiting for repairs. The PRR was famous for having tens of thousands of bad ordered cars on line
just being held for repairs, or retirement. I've seen railroad yard photos that shows scads of
home road cars of all kinds coupled together in long lines...

A great type of data is to know percentages of (1a) originated loads that terminate online (1b)
that terminate offline and (2a) received loads that terminate online or (2b) are interchanged to
other roads. Knowing AAR rules etc, one can make intelligent guesses about model consists that
represent these traffic flows.

Tim




On 9/15/2019 5:53 PM, Jason Kliewer wrote:
I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

Jason Kliewer

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Donald B. Valentine
 

Randy Hamill wrote:

"Although I generally agree with the Gilbert-Nelson approach, along with Bruce Smith’s percentages, they are very dependent upon the road you model. 

Bruce models the PRR, so 75% home road hoppers on any coal hauling road makes sense. But I model the NH that has a modest fleet of hoppers of less than 1,000, with little originating traffic that would send them offline. So home road hoppers make up a very small part of my fleet.

Understanding your road’s traffic is very important. For example, as much as 60% of the coal entering CT in my era was by water. That appears to have been Pocahontas and other bituminous coming through Baltimore, and I think was the primary source of coal loaded in NH hoppers to be distributed to industry, but particularly the railroad’s facilities. On the other hand, anthracite came primarily via Maybrook, unless you were in the vicinity of NYC, in which case it came mostly by float via Jersey City and Greenville. So I go with the anthracite hoppers as a mix of 75% home road of their loading point.

So the mix of hoppers is very dependent on whether you’re modeling a coal road or not, I think.

Gondolas and flats are the same, and since the NH was heavily involved in manufacturing, gondolas were also predominantly foreign. Like the hoppers, I think gondolas and flats are far more dependent on the home road of the loading point. 

I also think we often have too little variety (and too few) “rare” cars. I have two pictures, from different days, with ATSF Ga-8 gons, and these weren’t photographed because of their rarity, they just happened to be on those trains. Likewise the photos of the Litchfield & Madison gondola in New Britain. Numerous pictures of C&I hoppers, etc.

I’m not saying those happen every day, but based on those and many, many other photos that have “rare” cars (often in the background) show that there’s a wider variety than many allow. I think we often make the mistake of not having enough different “rare” cars to mix in, making the couple of rare cars that are owned very common on our layouts."

   

Hi Randy and all,

    I could not agree more with the last nine words of your first sentence, "they are very dependent upon the road you model".
The rest of what u have presented echos my own experience as well. I'm not going to suggest that Bruce's percentages are
incorrect but they in no way reflect traffic patterns of the roads in Northern New England. The key point that is borne out in hundreds of action photos of trains in Northern New England is that as much as 75 to 80% of the cars found in trains within the region were all boxcars! That seems to be quite different than the averages that have been suggested by Bruce and others. This is particularly true in the 1945 to 1950 period that I model. Using the Central Vermont as an example, the bulk of the traffic arriving in Italy Yard in St. Albans, Vermont, not 20 miles south of the Canadian border was brought there by parent Canadian National in trains that originated in the American mid-west, may not have been switched since leaving Chicago if originating on the Grand Trunk Western and was often picked up with CV #700 class 2-10-4's operating as far west as Brockville, Ontario and coming to St. Albans via the former Canada Atlantic line from Coteau Jct. and through Valleyfield, PQ to by-pass Montreal. Needless to state much of this was differential traffic taking advantage of the lower freight rates this provided. Much of it was also grain from both the American West and the Canadian West. Most of theat from the Canadian West was export grain while muchof the from the American midwest would be processed in transit under that rating system in grain mills in Northern New England for shipment further south in 100 lb. bags in boxcars that could be headed home that way or in boxcars frm whichever road the grain was processed on. Carloads of Canadian lumber for on line delivery or overhead traffic must also be considered. Parts for the Ford Assembly Plant formerly located in Somerville, Mass. also cam in boxcars excepet for the framws , which usually came in DT&I gons via the Canadian Pacific all the way from Windsor, Ontario until they arrived on the B&M at Wells River, VT. The traffic coming down the Grand Trunk in this period was much the same as a fair amount of grain was still going out through Portland, Maine in this era. Any Canadian made paper was also coming in boxcars.The hopper cars we saw were all coming up form the south and the further north one traveled the few of them were seen. Here to coal cold be seen coming north in B&O cars, the most plentiful and the cars most coal for the CV arrived in. Anthracite was largely found in D&H, Erie, Lackawanna or Reading cars. Pennsy and NYC cars were fairly common and a few C&O and N&W cars could be seen. Most coal from the C&O and N&W was tide coal that arrived at New England ports and was delivered in home road hoppers. Even the little Rutland handled much of the coal received from the NYC at Norwood, NY in this manner by transfering it to home road cars through the use of it large coal trestle at the side of its yard in ALburgh, VT. Tank cars in those years were not as common as hoppers but almost all gasoline and oil arrived in 8,000 and 10,000 gal. tank cars, again with fewer being seen the further north one went. With this traffic basis my car fleet does not begin to meet what Bruce has suggested for percentages and I don't think anything has been missed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

Donald B. Valentine
 

It was not just the reefer fleet that the BAR needed only for the potato harvest, it was also motive power. Until the BAR worked a deal with the Pennsy that sent BAR power to the Pennsy during the summer ore hauling season and PRR power to the BAR for the potato harvest it was not uncommon to see New Haven DL-109's on the BAR for the potato rush. I'm not certain how many seasons the New Haven power was used but it seems to have been about the only time Alco diesel power was seen on the BAR, which had been a loyal Alco customer in steam days.

Cordially, Don Valentine

devansprr
 

Randy, all,

"Understanding your road's traffic is very important" can't be emphasized enough. Bruce mentioned Reading traffic in his PRR area of interest (Columbia, PA, about 20 miles south of Harrisburg on the east side of the Susquehanna river.)

My area of interest is the mainline starting about 30 miles RR west of Columbia. Purchase of several WWII vintage PRR documents on car routing provides some major insights. Yes, for loads, many of us have decided that the distribution of loaded cars can match Bruce's proposed numbers, especially for a mainline functioning as a major US bridge line (as the PRR was between Pittsburgh and east coast destinations, especially during WWII.)

One of the PRR documents I found was specifically on how to route foreign road empties towards their home roads. Keep in mind on the PRR during WWII, there was a tremendous imbalance of loads versus empties. Less than 1% empties EB, 75% empties WB. Ignoring the PRR's large EB coal traffic, 60% of the WB non-hopper cars were empty.

While the 40% of those cars that were loaded might still reflect the national averages, for the empties, there could be significant deviations. Case in point was the NYC - operator of the second largest fleet of box cars. If the yardmaster's followed the PRR guidance, there would be no WB empty NYC cars west of Harrisburg on the PRR mainline. They were sent in a different direction (in fact in central PA, the PRR seems to have enjoyed returning NYC empties to a location on the NYC that was likely very inconvenient for the NYC to deal with ;-)  The NYC cars would still be used for loads, but for WB non-hopper trains, the NYC cars should be under-represented.

The other twist was limitations on car clearances, which in the east were often inadequate for many western RR XM's.  For the PRR, that meant that the taller XM's would be on trains running between Harrisburg and Chicago, since there were clearance limits along the line towards St. Louis. (The PRR booklet lists every single class of XM for every railroad, with notes on where they could, and could not, be routed.)

While not impacting the average distribution of cars flowing across the railroad, it could have significant impact on the consists of individual merchandise trains, just because of their ultimate destination, For example, all the tall XM's (loads and MTY's) on WB trains were routed towards Chicago (for tall cars destined for the SW US, those cars would use a division in Indiana to get back to the line to St. Louis). XM's on the trains headed directly toward St. Louis would be limited to the shorter XM's.  This offers some unique challenges a superintendent may want to impose on their yardmaster when classifying and blocking XM's....

Dave Evans

Armand Premo
 

To carry ratios a bit further would be the ratio of wood to steel freight cars per era one is modeling.Armand Premo

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Eric Lombard, Ray Breyer and Larry Ostesh have done a lot of research along these lines with regards to boxcars which can be found in the files section of this list.  Such as
 
 
 
 
Seek and ye shall find...
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Armand Premo
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 12:17 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ratios

To carry ratios a bit further would be the ratio of wood to steel freight cars per era one is modeling.Armand Premo

Brian Carlson
 

The N-G ratios are for fleets of cars they don’t get into the individual makeup of the cars within the fleet numbers.  

I touched on my approach to this aspect back when I did my presentations in 2009-11. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Sep 16, 2019, at 1:37 PM, Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:

Eric Lombard, Ray Breyer and Larry Ostesh have done a lot of research along these lines with regards to boxcars which can be found in the files section of this list.  Such as
 
 
 
 
Seek and ye shall find...
 
Steve Hile


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Armand Premo
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 12:17 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ratios

To carry ratios a bit further would be the ratio of wood to steel freight cars per era one is modeling.Armand Premo