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SAL Rebuilt Lumber Box Cars
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Guy Wilber
The Seaboard Air Line put its first rebuilt SS 40 foot box car with 20 foot door openings into service in February of 1956. The doors were arranged allowing openings from the end to the center of the car and positioned on opposite ends of side A and B resulting in open access to the full length of the car. The car was designed by SAL Mechanical Engineer E. L. Cook and built at the shops in Portsmouth, VA., and rebuilt from a 40’-6” single sheathed car. The special doors were supplied by Youngstown. The car was built to accommodate the increasing growth of packaged lumber coupled with the mechanical loading and unloading (via forklift). The original test of the car was routed from Franklin, VA, to Wickliffe, OH, over the Seaboard, Pennsylvania and Nickel Plate. The load contained 25,000 board feet of kiln dried dressed pine in packaged units weighing from 3,300 to 7,260 pounds. Mechanical loading was done in less than 70 minutes saving an estimated 16-18 man hours required to load a car board by board. Success of the car and the overall operation led to a subsequent rebuilding of ten more cars of similar design beginning in November of 1957. The second group was built with an increased inside height resulting in a door opening height 22 inches more than the original. The articles within “The Southern Lumberman” offer no information as to numbering of the cars. Would anyone here have additional information, photos and/or diagrams of these cars? Thank You for your consideration, Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada |
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spsalso
Somewhat related is that GN built a similar car, GN 29001, in 1958. The timing hints that someone at GN thought it an interesting idea.
The SAL cars and the GN cars were not so wonderful as to inspire a lot more copies. Besides having a near zero contribution to structural strength by the sides, I wonder if there was excess weather leakage. There ARE photos of both the GN and SAL. I fancy a model of either or both, but doubt I'll every get to it. I look forward to more informational contributions! Ed Edward Sutorik |
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Bill Parks
On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 02:48 PM, Guy Wilber wrote:
Would anyone here have additional information, photos and/or diagrams of these cars?The first one was numbered 20053, and the other ten were numbered 20200-20209. The book "Seaboard Air Line, Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment" has a picture of 20053 & 20202 in it -- Bill Parks Cumming, GA Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida |
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golden1014
Hi Guy,
John Golden here. I hope you're doing great! SAL rebuilt 11 rebuilt B-5 cars with 20’ doors in mid-1950s. SAL 20053 was the first and was an experimental car, and I believe it was rebuilt in 1959. The second series, 20200 – 20209, was modified from rebuilt B-5s but I'm not sure exactly when they were rebuilt. I have notes that say 1959, and also 1964. A few photos are attached and a 1957 ORER. Somewhere around here I have some later SAL ORERs--that should get us a lot closer to the answer. I'll send everything I can find.
John Golden        |
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spsalso
Re: the SAL cars.
SAL 20053 not in July 1955 ORER, but in July 1956. SAL 20200-20209 built 12-57. There was a similar car on the Milwaukee: MILW 39000. Except it was bigger. IL was 48-3 and door opening was 30'. There were 4 doors per side, and a centered opening. It was listed as a new entry in the July 1956 ORER. It was renumbered to MILW 16800 between 1961 and 1965. All but one of the SAL cars and the single GN and MILW appear in the April 1968 ORER. But there IS a single entry in SCL 820200-820209 that matches the SAL door opening. It appears this concept attacked people on at least 3 different railroads at about the same time. Ed Edward Sutorik |
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Bill Parks
On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 09:59 AM, spsalso wrote:
SAL 20200-20209 built 12-57.The SAL Color Guide (mentioned above) also says they were re-built in 1957 at the West Jacksonville Shops (where incidentally, my grandfather started work for the SAL in 1916 as secretary to the shop superintendent). The picture of 20202 you can see a 1957 built date, but it is hard to read the month (can't tell if it is "10" or "12") because the month is over rivets. -- Bill Parks Cumming, GA Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida |
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12-57 (picture of 20209)
On 11/26/2022 11:53 AM, Bill Parks via groups.io wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 09:59 AM, spsalso wrote: --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Guy Wilber
Friends,
I appreciate all the input and information from the group including; Bill Parks, John Golden, Ed Sutorik, Tim O’Connor, Allen Stanley, Eric Lombard and Dan Holbrook. Kindest Regards, Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada_._,_._,_ |
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spsalso
I do wonder if the impetus for this flurry of "double" sliding doors wasn't a new invention. Note that, somehow, doors were slid over other doors--an idea which might well have been new. And patentable.
While a 30' (centered) opening in a 50' car is dramatic, it doesn't allow sideways access to the end 10 feet. The SAL and GN cars DO--20' loads on each side with a fork lift--BAM! There's the obvious question: did anyone else try this? And what went wrong? Ed Edward Sutorik |
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Bill Parks
On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 11:31 PM, spsalso wrote:
And what went wrong?Ed - I can't say for sure, but my guess is timing. These came out in the late 50's (at least on the SAL), and in the 60's there was the start of the shift to carrying lumber on bulkhead flatcars. Also, railroads started buying more 50' boxcars around that time, and a 50' double door boxcar has an opening of 16'. Still 4' narrower than these cars, but wide enough to get the job done. -- Bill Parks Cumming, GA Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida |
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George Eichelberger
Am I correct to say before bulkhead flats and center beams, the various “all-door” cars ("Thrall-door” was a perfect name!) had their “day”?
Maintaining all of those sliding and roll up (Southern) car doors (starting in the late ‘50s) in daily battles with fork-lift drivers could not continue so they left the scene. Ike |
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Guy Wilber
Ed S. wrote:
"There was a similar car on the Milwaukee: MILW 39000. Except it was bigger. IL was 48-3 and door opening was 30'. There were 4 doors per side, and a centered opening. It was listed as a new entry in the July 1956 ORER. It was renumbered to MILW 16800 between 1961 and 1965."
Yet another example of a car built to accommodate "packaged" lumber to be loaded and unloaded by mechanical means. This was the trend for both open top and closed cars beginning in the early 1950s with continuous growth throughout the decade. J. P. Kiley, President, Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific Railway, mentions the 30-foot wide door opening car within an address he presented during the 1956 meeting of the AAR's Mechanical Division. Also, note Mr. Kiley's mention of the contemplation of cars being built in a similar fashion to those of the SAL with 20-foot doors at the ends placed diagonally from one another. Does anyone know if the company built any of the cars?
"Before I leave this subject I should not omit to mention the strong trend toward specialized freight cars. I know all of you are very much aware of this development and are doing your own thinking about it from the standpoints of both maintenance of these new types of equipment, and innovating changes in cars to fit special requirements. In out own case, we recently constructed a pilot model of a 50-foot box car with 30-foot wide side door openings, using the underframe of a heavy duty flat car. It is intended to facilitate loading and unloading of strapped lumber packets with lift trucks. To our knowledge, this is the first and only car in operation with side doors of such width. We are also fitting out a group of flat cars with bulkheads for wallboard and lumber loading. These cars will continue their serviceability for practically all other commodities moving on standard flats except items of such length as to to require a trailer car. Still another project involves modifying some 50-ton box cars with roof hatches and small doors which swing out at the sides to facilitate handling of wood chips. We are also working up the details for a 50-foot box car with 20-foot side doors in diagonally opposite corners."
Regards,
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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spsalso
It's pretty obvious how to load the 40'/20' cars with a fork lift. Not so much with the MILW 50'/30'. That one had centered doors, so it was "less fun" getting packaged wood back into the 10' long ends.
Ed Edward Sutorik |
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