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Significance of the P&LE / PMcK&Y USRA single sheathed rebuilds ?

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,

IMHO the 120 ton Brownhoist is the finest HO scale car kit made. I'm shocked to hear from Dennis that it did not sell well. The molds are getting very long in the tooth with lots of flash now, but in it's prime the molding was amazing and the engineering phenomenal. I've built two. One stock, and one more highly modified to better represent a PRR W120. 

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Coca Beach, Fl (for the next 4 days!)

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 12:21 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Significance of the P&LE / PMcK&Y USRA single sheathed rebuilds ?
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

Didn't Mr. Gould also produce the 120 ton Brownhoist crane ? That's one of the finest kit
models out there.

He may have been 'limited' but the engineering of the kits was fabulous, imo, and no one
until Tangent produced as high a quality tank car kit as his stillborn USRA tank car. (Which
I have seen good numbers of them built and running at train shows.)



On 1/4/2023 10:48 AM, Dennis Storzek via groups.io wrote:
On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 09:02 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
I don't think it was the "same story" with the tank cars. IF there was a prototype for the tank cars, beyond a drawing (and it now appears a very small number of similar cars were built), it was definitely not "available" to the die-cutter. The tank car was based on the die-cutter being supplied information (including a drawing) and the concerns of a number of people being ignored. There's plenty in the archives on this.
Most of which misses the point. The creator of that kit, Bill Gould, was a talented, but limited, toolmaker. He was 'self taught', his only training was apparently working for Cliff Grandt of Grandt Line. At that point in his development he had only done 'flat kits', the injection molded equivalent of the resin kits of the day. To do the tank car, Gould needed a prototype with a tank composed of FOUR longitudinal sheets, and that was provided by the drawings of the proposed USRA design published in the 1919 CBD. It's not that Gould didn't want to change prototypes, he couldn't. It was going to be that tankcar or nothing.

For added intrigue, Bob Hundman, publisher of Mainline Modeler magazine, was on a crusade to change the direction of plastic kit development to the 'many little bits' model, and Gould was his poster child who was going to prove the point, so Hundman ran interference. The end result was Bill Gould, disappointed with the poor sales of his line, eventually left the field, selling out to Don Tichy.

Dennis Storzek


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Bruce Smith
 

YES!  My bad... definitely Georgia, not C of G. And yes, the roof was not accurate, but you can either fix it or get the Speedwitch kit.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Cocoa Beach, Fl (at least for the next 4 days)

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 12:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Significance of the P&LE / PMcK&Y USRA single sheathed rebuilds ?
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

Georgia, not CofG. And I think it may only approximate the Georgia
rebuilds, because of their roofs. Did Speedwitch offer a corrected version?


On 1/4/2023 11:34 AM, Benjamin Scanlon via groups.io wrote:
What Central of Georgia rebuilt car did they do, Bruce? 

--
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Andy Carlson
 

What Bill Gould tragically learned the hard way was that making a great kit is only one part of successful marketing. How many of us have bought more than one Gould crane?. Now how many of us have bought more than one Intermountain R-40-23 PFE reefer, or how many of us have bought more than one Red Caboose '37 AAR box car?

I remember at the time he sold his line to Tichy, the hobby was the loser on this. Bill did some mold making for N scale DimiTrains and his N scale SP GS gondola was remarkable for the time. But that was the end for anymore great HO stuff from Bill.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 06:31:33 PM PST, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Tim,

IMHO the 120 ton Brownhoist is the finest HO scale car kit made. I'm shocked to hear from Dennis that it did not sell well. The molds are getting very long in the tooth with lots of flash now, but in it's prime the molding was amazing and the engineering phenomenal. I've built two. One stock, and one more highly modified to better represent a PRR W120. 

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Coca Beach, Fl (for the next 4 days!)

 


Didn't Mr. Gould also produce the 120 ton Brownhoist crane ? That's one of the finest kit
models out there.

He may have been 'limited' but the engineering of the kits was fabulous, imo, and no one
until Tangent produced as high a quality tank car kit as his stillborn USRA tank car. (Which
I have seen good numbers of them built and running at train shows.)



On 1/4/2023 10:48 AM, Dennis Storzek via groups.io wrote:
On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 09:02 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
I don't think it was the "same story" with the tank cars. IF there was a prototype for the tank cars, beyond a drawing (and it now appears a very small number of similar cars were built), it was definitely not "available" to the die-cutter. The tank car was based on the die-cutter being supplied information (including a drawing) and the concerns of a number of people being ignored. There's plenty in the archives on this.
Most of which misses the point. The creator of that kit, Bill Gould, was a talented, but limited, toolmaker. He was 'self taught', his only training was apparently working for Cliff Grandt of Grandt Line. At that point in his development he had only done 'flat kits', the injection molded equivalent of the resin kits of the day. To do the tank car, Gould needed a prototype with a tank composed of FOUR longitudinal sheets, and that was provided by the drawings of the proposed USRA design published in the 1919 CBD. It's not that Gould didn't want to change prototypes, he couldn't. It was going to be that tankcar or nothing.

For added intrigue, Bob Hundman, publisher of Mainline Modeler magazine, was on a crusade to change the direction of plastic kit development to the 'many little bits' model, and Gould was his poster child who was going to prove the point, so Hundman ran interference. The end result was Bill Gould, disappointed with the poor sales of his line, eventually left the field, selling out to Don Tichy.

Dennis Storzek


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

All of Gould's kits were engineering masterpieces.  I always suspected that he got out of the business because of all the grief that cascaded down on him when he produced a tank car that had never been built. That is certainly our loss.



Bill Pardie


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Date: 1/4/23 8:15 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Significance of the P&LE / PMcK&Y USRA single sheathed rebuilds ?


Georgia, not CofG. And I think it may only approximate the Georgia
rebuilds, because of their roofs. Did Speedwitch offer a corrected version?


On 1/4/2023 11:34 AM, Benjamin Scanlon via groups.io wrote:
What Central of Georgia rebuilt car did they do, Bruce? 

--
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Joseph
 

Changing the subject a bit, a modular kit to make the various rebuilds in plastic would be cool.  My sunshine and boas built kits are among my favorite cars in my fleet.   They have the “look”. 
Martin Lofton did a two part article in RMC of the various prototypes and modeled some of them.  Charts and lists and the whole shebang

Joe Binish
Snowy New Hope, MN

On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 8:53 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:
All of Gould's kits were engineering masterpieces.  I always suspected that he got out of the business because of all the grief that cascaded down on him when he produced a tank car that had never been built. That is certainly our loss.



Bill Pardie


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Date: 1/4/23 8:15 AM (GMT-10:00)
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Significance of the P&LE / PMcK&Y USRA single sheathed rebuilds ?


Georgia, not CofG. And I think it may only approximate the Georgia
rebuilds, because of their roofs. Did Speedwitch offer a corrected version?


On 1/4/2023 11:34 AM, Benjamin Scanlon via groups.io wrote:
What Central of Georgia rebuilt car did they do, Bruce? 


--
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Tim O'Connor
 


Um, Eric, I think Sunshine offered a mini-kit for the PMcK&Y box car to model the WABASH version, which had a different end.

Wabash also had double sheathed rebuilds. But the above mini-kit cars ended up on the Ann Arbor as well.


On 1/4/2023 7:02 PM, Eric Hansmann wrote:

Larry,
 
Please note the P&LE/PMcK&Y cars were rebuilt from USRA single-sheathed box cars. The GTW and Wabash rebuilt their USRA double-sheathed box cars. Beyond the underframes, there were some differences in the hardware that were used.
 
There may also be different hardware used on the roof as that was another area that several railroads upgraded over time on their USRA box cars. I do not know what the GTW or Wabash upgraded on their cars beyond the steel sides.
 
BTW, a USRA freight car assignments resource is available on my blog. The tables cover original car assignments. Post-USRA clones or sales are note noted on the data. You can see what lines received the different USRA car designs.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/usra-freight-car-assignments/
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Media, PA
 
On 01/04/2023 6:15 PM EST lrkdbn via groups.io <lrkdbn@...> wrote:
 
 
I believe the P&LE rebuild might have been the original application of the Youngstown rebuild kits for USRA cars
Also, it is very close to GTW and Wabash cars done a year or so later, the main difference being the underframe which a modeler of any ability at all should be able to cope with.
I think Gould/Tichy does some fine stuff, and I wish their approach to kits  would have more support than it seems to have.
Larry King


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

aa_x4639 40ft_SD_box USRA rebuild mofw exWABASH_ 1979.jpg

Ken Adams
 

Joe Binish

I have been stripping paint and lettering from several Intermountain box car kits recently.  They are modular with separate ends and roof castings. I have a lot of end castings from various sources but specific roof moldings are not that easy to come by. The ends and roofs in the kits I find on used shelves in hobby stores and at various auctions and swap meets never seem to match the prototypes I want to model. If Speedwitch or NSC or some other resin caster has made the right ones, they are usually out of stock.

Was the Martin Lofton article recent?  Unfortunately in 2019 I had to trash most of my RMC collection as I have limited townhouse storage space and it had gotton moldy in the garage from roof leak. 
--
Ken Adams
Covid Variants may come and go but I choose to still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io
Benjamin Hom
 

Ken Adams asked:
"Was the Martin Lofton article recent?"

Sadly, Martin's been gone for a full decade now (January 4, 2013), so no, not recent.  His rebuilt boxcar articles, which includied other non-USRA DS and SS boxcar rebuilds, appeared in several different magazines between 1989 and 1993, as detailed below:

Railroad Model Craftsman:
"Steel-Side USRA Rebuilds: Part I", September 1989
"Steel-Side USRA Rebuilds: Part II", October 1989

Santa Fe Modeler
"USRA Boxcar Rebuilds", 2nd Quarter 1990

Model RailroadING
"Boxcar Rebuilds: Part 1" (EJ&E, DT&I, RI, WAB), May 1990
"Boxcar Rebuilds: Part 2" (1937 AAR Look-Alikes), June 1990
"Boxcar Rebuilds: Part 3" (Modeling DT&I, WAB), July 1990

Railmodel Journal:
"USRA Rebuilt Boxcars: Part I" (Rebuilt DS Cars), April 1992
"USRA Rebuilt Boxcars: Part II" (Rebuilt SS Cars), April 1992
"USRA Rebuilt Boxcars: Part III" (Rebuilt DS Cars), June 1992

Mainline Modeler:
"NC&StL Boxcar, 36 ft Steel Rebuilds", June 1990
"Union Pacific B-50-17", May 1991
"Santa Fe Fe-5 to -19 Autocar Rebuilds", March 1993
"Santa Fe Bx-49 Boxcar - 1924 ARA Rebuilds", June 1993


Ben Hom
Craig Wilson
 

I think Sunshine offered a mini-kit for the PMcK&Y box car to model the WABASH version, which had a different end.
Wabash also had double sheathed rebuilds. But the above mini-kit cars ended up on the Ann Arbor as well.

IIRC those Sunshine parts were a "mini-kit" given out at one of the Naperville RPM meets.  My friend, the late Arnt Gerritsen, managed to obtain three sets for me which someday I will turn into those ex-Wabash AA MofW cars.  In addition to the ends, the Sunshine mini-kits included doors and a few other parts.  As to the prototype cars, a few of them still exist - one as a storage car on the Great Lakes Central in Cadillac Michigan.

And finally . . . your mission should you choose to accept it . . .
MWB40.AA4624.BoatLanding.July1976.jpg
For a long time, AA X2624 sat at the Ann Arbor Freight House in Cadillac (in black paint like the photo Tim attached) used for storage of track materials.  Then in 1972 (yeah, I know . . . in the future) the Michigan Artrain was scheduled to be on public display at the AA freight house and the local HS art class got permission to repaint the car for the event.  The lettering was added a couple of years later when it was moved to the "Boat Landing" yard - this 1976 photo.  Both sides of the car were painted differently and I have prints showing both sides as it appeared in 1972.

Craig Wilson
Benjamin Scanlon
 

Thanks to all for chipping in on this topic.

I found the discussion very instructive & interesting. 
--
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England
Ken Adams
 

I've had the Gould/Tichy 120 ton crane kit on my to eventually buy and build for decades but I got a wiff in this discussion that that they dies are worn and that I should be looking for an old kit made up maybe 10 or more years ago.

There were minor part completeness issues with both the 40 foot flat car that I built in 2021 and with the P&LE rebuilt USRA box car kit I built in 2022 both recently purchased at my local hobby shop but none that could not be overcome as I have a significant stock of Tichy parts on hand.  

Does anyone have an older unbuilt kit in their stash they would like to part with at current retail or less? Please contact me with a private (off line) message if you do. 

With the pending publication of Ken Harrison's extensive tome on Espee MOW equipment, I am looking at several HO projects for 2023-2024. 


--
Ken Adams
Covid Variants may come and go but I choose to still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io
Jeffrey White
 

Ken,

I wouldn't be afraid of buying a new kit.  I had a tank car kit that the mold for the running boards didn't fill completely.  An email to Tichy and I had a new sprue within a couple days.

Jeff White

Alma IL

On 1/6/2023 6:02 PM, Ken Adams wrote:

I've had the Gould/Tichy 120 ton crane kit on my to eventually buy and build for decades but I got a wiff in this discussion that that they dies are worn and that I should be looking for an old kit made up maybe 10 or more years ago.

There were minor part completeness issues with both the 40 foot flat car that I built in 2021 and with the P&LE rebuilt USRA box car kit I built in 2022 both recently purchased at my local hobby shop but none that could not be overcome as I have a significant stock of Tichy parts on hand.  

Does anyone have an older unbuilt kit in their stash they would like to part with at current retail or less? Please contact me with a private (off line) message if you do. 

With the pending publication of Ken Harrison's extensive tome on Espee MOW equipment, I am looking at several HO projects for 2023-2024. 


--
Ken Adams
Covid Variants may come and go but I choose to still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io

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