Topics

SP Overnight scheme

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Both Intermountain and Red Caboose offer their 1937 AAR box car in the SP's Overnight scheme. As I understand it, this scheme was ONLY applied to cars built with Improved Dreadnaught Ends (but were 10 ft high inside), but I want to make sure before I criticize this version. (If I remember Tony's article in RMC, these were the SP's first box cars with this end.)

- John Nehrich

Richard Hendrickson
 

Both Intermountain and Red Caboose offer their 1937 AAR box car in the
SP's Overnight scheme. As I understand it, this scheme was ONLY applied
to cars built with Improved Dreadnaught Ends (but were 10 ft high inside),
but I want to make sure before I criticize this version. (If I remember
Tony's article in RMC, these were the SP's first box cars with this end.)

- John Nehrich
That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series, built in mid-1946,
which were 10'0"IH AAR-design cars with improved Dreadnaught ends,
alternate-center rivet courses on the side sheathing, early postwar
Youngstown corrugated doors with wide seam panels, and steel grid running
boards. So not only the ends but the sides, doors, and running boards of
the IM and RC models are wrong. It's highly unlikely that an accurate
model of these cars will ever be offered in styrene (though resin is
certainly a possibility) which is, of course, bad news for the SP guys who
would like to model a whole string of them. Since the overnight freight
service trains ran at night, however, I suppose you could made up a train
of IM or RC cars and turn out all the lights in the layout room so the
inaccuracies would be invisible. For that matter, with the lights out you
could run any old train made up of antique Athearn/Tyco/MDC junk that would
make appropriate noises and just tell visitors that what they were hearing
was the LA-SF Overnight. I understand that's what T. Thomspon intends to
do if he ever gets what's left of his Coast Line layout reincarnated in his
attic in Berkeley. FWIW, the overnight cars weren't supposed to go
off-line, so they'd be out of place on any layout that didn't model the SP
Coast Line (though there is a well known M. D. McCarter photo of a nearly
new one at Peru, IN, so obviously there were occasional exceptions).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Richard - I thought so. But with traditional Athearn, Tyco, etc., the sound
I would like to hear with all the lights out is them hitting the concrete
floor - the most
desperate form of kitbashing. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP Overnight scheme


Both Intermountain and Red Caboose offer their 1937 AAR box car in the
SP's Overnight scheme. As I understand it, this scheme was ONLY applied
to cars built with Improved Dreadnaught Ends (but were 10 ft high
inside),
but I want to make sure before I criticize this version. (If I remember
Tony's article in RMC, these were the SP's first box cars with this end.)

- John Nehrich
That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series, built in
mid-1946,
which were 10'0"IH AAR-design cars with improved Dreadnaught ends,
alternate-center rivet courses on the side sheathing, early postwar
Youngstown corrugated doors with wide seam panels, and steel grid running
boards. So not only the ends but the sides, doors, and running boards of
the IM and RC models are wrong. It's highly unlikely that an accurate
model of these cars will ever be offered in styrene (though resin is
certainly a possibility) which is, of course, bad news for the SP guys who
would like to model a whole string of them. Since the overnight freight
service trains ran at night, however, I suppose you could made up a train
of IM or RC cars and turn out all the lights in the layout room so the
inaccuracies would be invisible. For that matter, with the lights out you
could run any old train made up of antique Athearn/Tyco/MDC junk that
would
make appropriate noises and just tell visitors that what they were hearing
was the LA-SF Overnight. I understand that's what T. Thomspon intends to
do if he ever gets what's left of his Coast Line layout reincarnated in
his
attic in Berkeley. FWIW, the overnight cars weren't supposed to go
off-line, so they'd be out of place on any layout that didn't model the SP
Coast Line (though there is a well known M. D. McCarter photo of a nearly
new one at Peru, IN, so obviously there were occasional exceptions).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520




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Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Richard,

From the wording in your reply, I presume you are unaware that Martin
Loftin has the correct model of the SP Overnight boxcar in his Sunshine
line. It's a nice model, with the correct ACR panels and the improved
ends. Maybe someday I'll actually get around to building mine. :^)

I might add that after the overnight service ended, these cars were
released to the general fright pool, though this was in the 1960s.
Probably most had long been relettered in the aluminum/grey scheme. I
have a blurred photo of one taken at Roseville in my old high-school
days. Unfortunately, it was on its way to the scrap yard in Lincoln.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series, built in mid-1946,
which were 10'0"IH AAR-design cars with improved Dreadnaught ends,
alternate-center rivet courses on the side sheathing, early postwar
Youngstown corrugated doors with wide seam panels, and steel grid running
boards. So not only the ends but the sides, doors, and running boards of
the IM and RC models are wrong. It's highly unlikely that an accurate
model of these cars will ever be offered in styrene (though resin is
certainly a possibility) which is, of course, bad news for the SP guys who
would like to model a whole string of them....

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard,

From the wording in your reply, I presume you are unaware that Martin
Loftin has the correct model of the SP Overnight boxcar in his Sunshine
line. It's a nice model, with the correct ACR panels and the improved
ends.
You're right Garth, I'd forgotten that Martin had produced a resin kit for
these cars. It's a model I can't use, and I have a hard time remembering
all the different cars in the Sunshine line.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote

You're right Garth, I'd forgotten that Martin had produced a resin kit for
these cars. It's a model I can't use, and I have a hard time remembering
all the different cars in the Sunshine line.
HO kits are available for SP boxcars:

B-50-1/2/4/6/9/12/12A/13/14/15/16/18/19/20/21/22/23/24/25/26/27/28/29/30

That should be easy enough to remember! ;o)

Now if we could just get a B-50-17....


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

thompson@...
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series...
Richard forgets what I know he is well acquainted with: the ORIGINAL
scheme for the Overnight cars was all black with orange lettering and
striping, used before WW II.

I understand that's what T. Thomspon intends to
do if he ever gets what's left of his Coast Line layout reincarnated in his
attic in Berkeley. FWIW, the overnight cars weren't supposed to go
off-line, so they'd be out of place on any layout that didn't model the SP
Coast Line (though there is a well known M. D. McCarter photo of a nearly
new one at Peru, IN, so obviously there were occasional exceptions).
Hmmm. It may be a race whether it's Richard or me who first hosts an
operating session on his new layout. But until that happens, I would
classify comments such as these as pure speculation.
And the operative word in Richard's comment about off-line service is
"supposed," since clearly that wasn't always true.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series...
Richard forgets what I know he is well acquainted with: the ORIGINAL
scheme for the Overnight cars was all black with orange lettering and
striping, used before WW II.
Quibble, quibble. Of COURSE I know what the "original" overnight scheme
was, but it was never applied to B-50-24s. My point was to differentiate
the original scheme applied to those cars from the later aluminum paint
scheme.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

You guys might know what the ORIGINAL scheme was, prior to WWII, but I
don't. MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
(Reminds me of the hard times we Rutland modelers used to face, when Karline
did a "Route of the Whippet" scheme on an Athearn steel box car and
Train-Miniature did a green and yellow scheme on their wood box car, and
while neither car is that close to what the Rutland had, the Whippet scheme
should be on a wood car and the green and yellow on a steel (PS-1)). - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP Overnight scheme


Richard Hendrickson wrote:
That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series...
Richard forgets what I know he is well acquainted with: the ORIGINAL
scheme for the Overnight cars was all black with orange lettering and
striping, used before WW II.
Quibble, quibble. Of COURSE I know what the "original" overnight scheme
was, but it was never applied to B-50-24s. My point was to differentiate
the original scheme applied to those cars from the later aluminum paint
scheme.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520




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Richard Hendrickson
 

You guys might know what the ORIGINAL scheme was, prior to WWII, but I
don't. MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
I waited for Thompson to respond, so I wouldn't get jeered at again, but
he's apparently busy working on a book. I haven't seen the MDC model in
Overnight paint/lettering, so I don't know which scheme they used, but the
original pre-WW-II Overnight scheme was applied to steel sheathed (not wood
sheathed) SP B-50-15 single sheathed box cars and consisted of black with
the sides outlined in Daylight yellow-orange and standard lettering (no
heralds) also in Daylight yellow-orange. After the war, many of these cars
received a later Overnight scheme which was similar to that applied in 1946
to the B-50-24s. This, too, was all black but had white lettering, a
yellow and black SP herald to the left of the door above the road name
(spelled out) and numbers, and a red and yellow arrow/ball Overnight emblem
to the right of the door above the dimensional data.

All more or less academic, in my view, since the MDC model is a hopelessly
inaccurate representation of the prototype SP cars (or any other prototype
cars, for that matter). Aside from having wood instead of steel side
sheathing, it's way too tall and has the wrong ends, roof, doors,
underframe, and trucks. Even to consider it as a stand-in, you'd have to
have seriously defective vision. (Fortunately, saying so on this list will
not bring on more hostility from the "three feet away" FCL subscribers.)

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

John W Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Richard - MDC has this version posted on their web site. Yes, I agree it
would be far too wrong even the scheme is correct, but it is even
"wronger" if the scheme was never used on anything other than the IDE
steel box cars.
What I am trying to do is list objectively all the points of
differences for each kit version and let the modeler make a decision on
that, not on bissful ignorance. And even if someone decides to go ahead
and still get it, at least they can be prepared for critism. And their
friends can also be prepared to critize. (And then all go upstairs and
indulge in some of that cheap bulk wine and forget the matter.)
- John

On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

You guys might know what the ORIGINAL scheme was, prior to WWII, but I
don't. MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
I waited for Thompson to respond, so I wouldn't get jeered at again, but
he's apparently busy working on a book. I haven't seen the MDC model in
Overnight paint/lettering, so I don't know which scheme they used, but the
original pre-WW-II Overnight scheme was applied to steel sheathed (not wood
sheathed) SP B-50-15 single sheathed box cars and consisted of black with
the sides outlined in Daylight yellow-orange and standard lettering (no
heralds) also in Daylight yellow-orange. After the war, many of these cars
received a later Overnight scheme which was similar to that applied in 1946
to the B-50-24s. This, too, was all black but had white lettering, a
yellow and black SP herald to the left of the door above the road name
(spelled out) and numbers, and a red and yellow arrow/ball Overnight emblem
to the right of the door above the dimensional data.

All more or less academic, in my view, since the MDC model is a hopelessly
inaccurate representation of the prototype SP cars (or any other prototype
cars, for that matter). Aside from having wood instead of steel side
sheathing, it's way too tall and has the wrong ends, roof, doors,
underframe, and trucks. Even to consider it as a stand-in, you'd have to
have seriously defective vision. (Fortunately, saying so on this list will
not bring on more hostility from the "three feet away" FCL subscribers.)

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...


thompson@...
 

John Nehrich writes:
MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
As hard as you like, John. Beyond the 40-ft. length, I'd say the cars are
totally different. Doors, BTW, are also wrong on the MDC kit; so I'd say it
was about a complete miss all around.
If I recall correctly, the MDC car seems to be aimed at resembling the WW
II cars built to War Emergency standards, but (like Athearn) they used a
bunch of other components on hand, e.g. ends. Thus the car has, like so
many MDC products, no prototype at all--as far as I know.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Tony - I think the MDC car is an attempt to model the Santa Fe 7 panel Pratt
truss cars, but on their 1937 AAR box car body. But if I remember, their
earlier cast metal version had a Howe truss, which might have been a little
more useful on that car body.
And the problem is compounded by the fact that it doesn't LOOK like a
single-sheathed car, with too wide grooves for the boards, too shallow
relief for the bracing and lacking that "sunken cheek" look (like someone
with their false teeth out) of a true SS car. Finally, because of the
misfit of side to body, the ribs don't even reach the top and bottom of the
car. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: <thompson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP Overnight scheme


John Nehrich writes:
MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know
the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
As hard as you like, John. Beyond the 40-ft. length, I'd say the cars
are
totally different. Doors, BTW, are also wrong on the MDC kit; so I'd say
it
was about a complete miss all around.
If I recall correctly, the MDC car seems to be aimed at resembling the
WW
II cars built to War Emergency standards, but (like Athearn) they used a
bunch of other components on hand, e.g. ends. Thus the car has, like so
many MDC products, no prototype at all--as far as I know.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...


Richard Hendrickson
 

John Nehrich wrote:

Tony - I think the MDC car is an attempt to model the Santa Fe 7 panel Pratt
truss cars, but on their 1937 AAR box car body. But if I remember, their
earlier cast metal version had a Howe truss, which might have been a little
more useful on that car body.
Same car body, John, just assembled from separate cast metal pieces rather
than one piece of styrene: rectangular panel roof, 4-5 Dreadnaught ends,
(poorly rendered) AAR underframe. So it wasn't useful at all.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

thompson@...
 

John Nehrich writes:
I think the MDC car is an attempt to model the Santa Fe 7 panel Pratt
truss cars, but on their 1937 AAR box car body. But if I remember, their
earlier cast metal version had a Howe truss, which might have been a little
more useful on that car body.
And the problem is compounded by the fact that it doesn't LOOK like a
single-sheathed car, with too wide grooves for the boards, too shallow
relief for the bracing and lacking that "sunken cheek" look (like someone
with their false teeth out) of a true SS car. Finally, because of the
misfit of side to body, the ribs don't even reach the top and bottom of the
car. - John
Whether MDC intended to model ANY protoype is unknown and, based on their
track record, improbable. Most likely they were just doing another
"interesting" kit using existing resources, perhaps crudely aiming at some
prototype photo but possibly with an entirely generic goal. In any case, we
can agree the car is a poor model and matches no prototype, nor is it
readily kitbashable into anything prototypical. Definitely swap meet
material.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history