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Robert kirkham
Fenton Wells posted some photos of modified Athearn gons with some very nice scrap loads. It got me to wondering about where to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. I model post WWII (Summer '46).
The reason i ask: For example, i’ve found some photos (a couple included here) by Lee Russel (in Albuquerque c1942) in the LoC collection showing old model “A"s, pot belly stoves, bed springs and a hundred other model railroad cliche’s. Nut i am wary of taking that as a base line for what scrap should show up in a gon. i have the impression that anything in a scrap heap in 1941/early 42’ will have been turned into planes, ships, tracks or bayonets by 1945, leaving the scrap yards of N. America kind of empty of that earlier era “stuff”.
Then the war ends, and there would be a lot of unnecessary war supplies to be stored, scrapped or sold as war surplus. Not necessarily shipped in scrap gons?? Much of it still in Europe or on some beach in the Pacific, never to travel N.American rails again. I also have a 1946 photo (no permission to copy tho) of a junk yard in Vancouver BC where the heap includes gleaming stainless steel aircraft wings (with markings). Kind of different!
I can imagine that the resumption of the “peace time” economy kicks in to change the mix after that, so your average late ‘40s to mid 50’s modeller has a different mix to deal with.
So a basic theory emerges that the kind of scrap in gons - and maybe the likelihood of seeing scrap gons in trains - could be different pre, mid, immediately post war and a half decade or more later.
I’m thinking the other obvious element is geographic location of the steel industry and industry manufacturing in steel. The closer to such centres, the more the mix of cars includes scrap gons? But I doubt that changes significantly with the depression and WWII. Or No?
I wonder if any of you have more insight or resources that point in a different direction or could flesh this out in a little more detail? Especially interested in any other sources that would describe most scrap immediately post WWII.
Rob
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O Fenton Wells
My feeling and I could be way off on this but scrap was in relatively large sizes up though the early 1960's then shredders and compacting machines began to make a difference. Remember the movie Goldfinger in the mid 60's when the car was crushed and compacted, Also I've seen cars flattened and stacked and covered in netting to keep debris from falling. I have photos I have taken in the 80's in the midwest where scrap is sorted by metal type and in very small pieces. As I said this is just conjecture based on my observations. Fenton
On Sat, Nov 5, 2022 at 4:41 PM Robert kirkham < rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Fenton Wells posted some photos of modified Athearn gons with some very nice scrap loads. It got me to wondering about where to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. I model post WWII (Summer '46).
The reason i ask: For example, i’ve found some photos (a couple included here) by Lee Russel (in Albuquerque c1942) in the LoC collection showing old model “A"s, pot belly stoves, bed springs and a hundred other model railroad cliche’s. Nut i am wary of taking that as a base line for what scrap should show up in a gon. i have the impression that anything in a scrap heap in 1941/early 42’ will have been turned into planes, ships, tracks or bayonets by 1945, leaving the scrap yards of N. America kind of empty of that earlier era “stuff”.
Then the war ends, and there would be a lot of unnecessary war supplies to be stored, scrapped or sold as war surplus. Not necessarily shipped in scrap gons?? Much of it still in Europe or on some beach in the Pacific, never to travel N.American rails again. I also have a 1946 photo (no permission to copy tho) of a junk yard in Vancouver BC where the heap includes gleaming stainless steel aircraft wings (with markings). Kind of different!
I can imagine that the resumption of the “peace time” economy kicks in to change the mix after that, so your average late ‘40s to mid 50’s modeller has a different mix to deal with.
So a basic theory emerges that the kind of scrap in gons - and maybe the likelihood of seeing scrap gons in trains - could be different pre, mid, immediately post war and a half decade or more later.
I’m thinking the other obvious element is geographic location of the steel industry and industry manufacturing in steel. The closer to such centres, the more the mix of cars includes scrap gons? But I doubt that changes significantly with the depression and WWII. Or No?
I wonder if any of you have more insight or resources that point in a different direction or could flesh this out in a little more detail? Especially interested in any other sources that would describe most scrap immediately post WWII.
Rob
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Good analysis, but unless you want a “conversation piece” gondola I think its scrap load should be pretty generic. If you can find a machine shop they might give
you some metal shavings from drill presses or milling machines. Wet them and allow rusting to occur, then form into a block and soak with white glue.
Shipping large items, such as cars, intact means you don’t get full value from carload rates.
Think of your layout like a movie. There are a handful of stars and the rest of the cast and extras aren’t allowed to “steal the scene” from them. They should
be costumed appropriately for their roles and the era, but if they are conspicuous something is probably wrong.
Alex Schneider
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of O Fenton Wells
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2022 4:17 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Speaking of scrap (was Something old, reborn - plastic Freight Car Builders list)
My feeling and I could be way off on this but scrap was in relatively large sizes up though the early 1960's then shredders and compacting machines began to make a difference. Remember the movie Goldfinger in the mid 60's when the car
was crushed and compacted, Also I've seen cars flattened and stacked and covered in netting to keep debris from falling. I have photos I have taken in the 80's in the midwest where scrap is sorted by metal type and in very small pieces.
As I said this is just conjecture based on my observations.
On Sat, Nov 5, 2022 at 4:41 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Fenton Wells posted some photos of modified Athearn gons with some very nice scrap loads. It got me to wondering about where to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. I model post WWII (Summer '46).
The reason i ask: For example, i’ve found some photos (a couple included here) by Lee Russel (in Albuquerque c1942) in the LoC collection showing old model “A"s, pot belly stoves, bed springs and a hundred other model railroad cliche’s.
Nut i am wary of taking that as a base line for what scrap should show up in a gon. i have the impression that anything in a scrap heap in 1941/early 42’ will have been turned into planes, ships, tracks or bayonets by 1945, leaving the scrap yards of N.
America kind of empty of that earlier era “stuff”.
Then the war ends, and there would be a lot of unnecessary war supplies to be stored, scrapped or sold as war surplus. Not necessarily shipped in scrap gons?? Much of it still in Europe or on some beach in the Pacific, never to travel
N.American rails again. I also have a 1946 photo (no permission to copy tho) of a junk yard in Vancouver BC where the heap includes gleaming stainless steel aircraft wings (with markings). Kind of different!
I can imagine that the resumption of the “peace time” economy kicks in to change the mix after that, so your average late ‘40s to mid 50’s modeller has a different mix to deal with.
So a basic theory emerges that the kind of scrap in gons - and maybe the likelihood of seeing scrap gons in trains - could be different pre, mid, immediately post war and a half decade or more later.
I’m thinking the other obvious element is geographic location of the steel industry and industry manufacturing in steel. The closer to such centres, the more the mix of cars includes scrap gons? But I doubt that changes significantly
with the depression and WWII. Or No?
I wonder if any of you have more insight or resources that point in a different direction or could flesh this out in a little more detail? Especially interested in any other sources that would describe most scrap immediately post WWII.
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O Fenton Wells
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Good analysis, but unless you want a “conversation piece” gondola I think its scrap load should be pretty generic. If you can find a machine shop they might give
you some metal shavings from drill presses or milling machines. Wet them and allow rusting to occur, then form into a block and soak with white glue.
Shipping large items, such as cars, intact means you don’t get full value from carload rates.
Think of your layout like a movie. There are a handful of stars and the rest of the cast and extras aren’t allowed to “steal the scene” from them. They should
be costumed appropriately for their roles and the era, but if they are conspicuous something is probably wrong.
Alex Schneider
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of O Fenton Wells
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2022 4:17 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Speaking of scrap (was Something old, reborn - plastic Freight Car Builders list)
My feeling and I could be way off on this but scrap was in relatively large sizes up though the early 1960's then shredders and compacting machines began to make a difference. Remember the movie Goldfinger in the mid 60's when the car
was crushed and compacted, Also I've seen cars flattened and stacked and covered in netting to keep debris from falling. I have photos I have taken in the 80's in the midwest where scrap is sorted by metal type and in very small pieces.
As I said this is just conjecture based on my observations.
On Sat, Nov 5, 2022 at 4:41 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Fenton Wells posted some photos of modified Athearn gons with some very nice scrap loads. It got me to wondering about where to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. I model post WWII (Summer '46).
The reason i ask: For example, i’ve found some photos (a couple included here) by Lee Russel (in Albuquerque c1942) in the LoC collection showing old model “A"s, pot belly stoves, bed springs and a hundred other model railroad cliche’s.
Nut i am wary of taking that as a base line for what scrap should show up in a gon. i have the impression that anything in a scrap heap in 1941/early 42’ will have been turned into planes, ships, tracks or bayonets by 1945, leaving the scrap yards of N.
America kind of empty of that earlier era “stuff”.
Then the war ends, and there would be a lot of unnecessary war supplies to be stored, scrapped or sold as war surplus. Not necessarily shipped in scrap gons?? Much of it still in Europe or on some beach in the Pacific, never to travel
N.American rails again. I also have a 1946 photo (no permission to copy tho) of a junk yard in Vancouver BC where the heap includes gleaming stainless steel aircraft wings (with markings). Kind of different!
I can imagine that the resumption of the “peace time” economy kicks in to change the mix after that, so your average late ‘40s to mid 50’s modeller has a different mix to deal with.
So a basic theory emerges that the kind of scrap in gons - and maybe the likelihood of seeing scrap gons in trains - could be different pre, mid, immediately post war and a half decade or more later.
I’m thinking the other obvious element is geographic location of the steel industry and industry manufacturing in steel. The closer to such centres, the more the mix of cars includes scrap gons? But I doubt that changes significantly
with the depression and WWII. Or No?
I wonder if any of you have more insight or resources that point in a different direction or could flesh this out in a little more detail? Especially interested in any other sources that would describe most scrap immediately post WWII.
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Robert kirkham
Thanks for the thoughts. I too am looking for something mundane but suitable for my era. Have not seen photos of shredded metal loads around here for 1946.
A correction thanks to some off list help: aircraft from WWII were aluminum, not stainless. That sent me back to the photo i mentioned, and while the aircraft parts are lighter coloured, i’m not even sure they are bare metal. Many are dark. It's a black and white photo so its all shades of gray of course . . . But in the spirit of getting it right, fyi.
Rob
Good points Alex, thanks
Good analysis, but unless you want a “conversation piece” gondola I think its scrap load should be pretty generic. If you can find a machine shop they might give
you some metal shavings from drill presses or milling machines. Wet them and allow rusting to occur, then form into a block and soak with white glue. Shipping large items, such as cars, intact means you don’t get full value from carload rates. Think of your layout like a movie. There are a handful of stars and the rest of the cast and extras aren’t allowed to “steal the scene” from them. They should
be costumed appropriately for their roles and the era, but if they are conspicuous something is probably wrong. Alex Schneider From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of O Fenton Wells
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2022 4:17 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Speaking of scrap (was Something old, reborn - plastic Freight Car Builders list)
My feeling and I could be way off on this but scrap was in relatively large sizes up though the early 1960's then shredders and compacting machines began to make a difference. Remember the movie Goldfinger in the mid 60's when the car
was crushed and compacted, Also I've seen cars flattened and stacked and covered in netting to keep debris from falling. I have photos I have taken in the 80's in the midwest where scrap is sorted by metal type and in very small pieces.
As I said this is just conjecture based on my observations.
On Sat, Nov 5, 2022 at 4:41 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Fenton Wells posted some photos of modified Athearn gons with some very nice scrap loads. It got me to wondering about where to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. I model post WWII (Summer '46).
The reason i ask: For example, i’ve found some photos (a couple included here) by Lee Russel (in Albuquerque c1942) in the LoC collection showing old model “A"s, pot belly stoves, bed springs and a hundred other model railroad cliche’s.
Nut i am wary of taking that as a base line for what scrap should show up in a gon. i have the impression that anything in a scrap heap in 1941/early 42’ will have been turned into planes, ships, tracks or bayonets by 1945, leaving the scrap yards of N.
America kind of empty of that earlier era “stuff”.
Then the war ends, and there would be a lot of unnecessary war supplies to be stored, scrapped or sold as war surplus. Not necessarily shipped in scrap gons?? Much of it still in Europe or on some beach in the Pacific, never to travel
N.American rails again. I also have a 1946 photo (no permission to copy tho) of a junk yard in Vancouver BC where the heap includes gleaming stainless steel aircraft wings (with markings). Kind of different!
I can imagine that the resumption of the “peace time” economy kicks in to change the mix after that, so your average late ‘40s to mid 50’s modeller has a different mix to deal with.
So a basic theory emerges that the kind of scrap in gons - and maybe the likelihood of seeing scrap gons in trains - could be different pre, mid, immediately post war and a half decade or more later.
I’m thinking the other obvious element is geographic location of the steel industry and industry manufacturing in steel. The closer to such centres, the more the mix of cars includes scrap gons? But I doubt that changes significantly
with the depression and WWII. Or No?
I wonder if any of you have more insight or resources that point in a different direction or could flesh this out in a little more detail? Especially interested in any other sources that would describe most scrap immediately post WWII.
<image001.jpg><image002.jpg>
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That's a very interesting question. You focused on 1946 immediately after WWII ended, but I hope you won't mind extending it slightly backward in time as well:
In 1940 and 1941, the period that brought the Depression to a close here in the US, what kind of scrap loads were feeding "the Arsenal of Democracy"?
Thanks!
Irv Thomae
modeling north-central Vermont in 1940-41
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Robert kirkham
ah, i forgot that slogan. I’m interested in the trends, so yes - bring it on!
My only approach so far is photos of junkyards. lol, thats not a very sophisticated understanding of “industry”, but there is some photo record of what was collected as valuable. Beyond that, i too would like to know more.
That's a very interesting question. You focused on 1946 immediately after WWII ended, but I hope you won't mind extending it slightly backward in time as well:
In 1940 and 1941, the period that brought the Depression to a close here in the US, what kind of scrap loads were feeding "the Arsenal of Democracy"?
Thanks!
Irv Thomae
modeling north-central Vermont in 1940-41
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To check out what colour aircraft we're just look up the references, used by aircraft modellers. Bare polished Aluminum was a common livery on US military aircraft. The aluminum was polished to enhance speed. A lot of surplus armored vehicles were left in Europe. Israels first fighter planes were rebuilt from scrap, and their first Sherman tanks were bought from Italy (100+iirc). Some older aircraft had steel in their framework.
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Robert kirkham
Here’s a small snippet from the photo I mentioned earlier; my memory of it was incorrect, hence the note later yesterday.
The location is Active Training, a dealer in scrap near the port in Vancouver. The mix of aircraft and other parts certainly is eye catching, although i think the risk that a model would look like a model railroad cliche is pretty significant.
Based on what i can see, there is a set of wings (with the wheel wells showing), numerous fuselages, but plenty of other “stuff”. My feeling is that the stuff that is less eye catching is more of the bread and butter of the scrap business on the west cost immediately post war.
To check out what colour aircraft we're just look up the references, used by aircraft modellers. Bare polished Aluminum was a common livery on US military aircraft. The aluminum was polished to enhance speed. A lot of surplus armored vehicles were left in Europe. Israels first fighter planes were rebuilt from scrap, and their first Sherman tanks were bought from Italy (100+iirc). Some older aircraft had steel in their framework.
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Robert kirkham
Thought i’d send another image - these are from the City of Vancouver Archives dated 1934, CVA 99-4605 and 99-4606. Without more to inform what to be looking out for, I think the concept of “prepared steel scrap” labeled in the second image is helpful when considering gon loads c.mid 1930s.
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Here’s a guest blog post on scrap loads from a few years ago. It’s a nice combination of prototype and modeling info.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
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Eric Hansmann wrote:
Here’s a guest blog post on scrap loads from a few years ago. It’s a nice combination of prototype and modeling info.
Thanks for the link, Eric. Good post, and sound information about scrap grades, as I learned when I lived in Pittsburgh. If only more modelers would both read it, and act on it.
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O Fenton Wells
Good Blog Tony, I had not seen this, thanks for sharing Fenton
On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 10:59 PM Tony Thompson < tony@...> wrote: Eric Hansmann wrote:
Here’s a guest blog post on scrap loads from a few years ago. It’s a nice combination of prototype and modeling info.
Thanks for the link, Eric. Good post, and sound information about scrap grades, as I learned when I lived in Pittsburgh. If only more modelers would both read it, and act on it.
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