Topics

Standard Steel Drawing List

Bob Webber
 

I have an updated Standard Steel drawing list.  This list is both freight (from SS-0 - SS-99999) and Passenger (SS-100000 and above).

It can be found here:
http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/

FAQ:
  • Yes, there are a lot of inconsistencies - so's your old ma..er...Sometimes that's us, sometimes the original.  When this started over 20 years ago, there was no style sheet.  Come to think of it, there is none now.  
  • Yes, there are likely a lot of misspellings, incorrect abbreviations, and uncapitalized names.   Yep.  Yep.  I caught a lot of misspellings, but there are more lurking
  • The Metadata engine has no spell check, no mass replacement, and it can't figure out what the hell a Pries roof is.  Neither can I
  • This is ONLY Standard Steel.  Only 4500 or so drawings that have been scanned.   Yes I plan on doing Pullman Freight & Passenger, Osgood Bradley, Budd, Haskell & Barker and maybe Boeing, Ford and Airbus.  Not today
  • Don't see something that is referenced in a drawing - send me a private message.  Don't see something you want?  Ditto.  Don't see ACF?  Call St. Louis
  • You want full resolution tifs available for downloading free?  Meet me at the bar in the Cocoa Beach Hilton tonight - it may take me a while to get there, but we can talk about it then.
  • You want to order something but don't know how or how much? See http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/orderinfo.htm and https://www.irm.org/pullmanlibrary/price-list/ and http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/Form%20Customer%20Service%202.pdf
  • Want WHAT WHEN?????????   Meet me in the bar at the Cocoa Beach Hilton in 5 minutes...bring lots of unmarked bills...big denomination bills...i.e. CASH....I'll be there ASAP...Mike? When is the RPM next year?

All this is done by volunteers.  Multiple volunteers.  That means their input style is different, as is their spelling, abbreviations, etc.  No kidding tho - the originals are rife with the same thing.  Remember all this is supposed to happen with the work done in 1 6 hour day a week.  

We've added over 1000 Standard Steel drawings in the past 6 months.  We have other work happening all the time, including preparing for the big move.  

And remember, just like that good old cook on the AT&SF - be careful what you criticize, you will be given the job!

Bob Webber

mark_landgraf
 

Bob,

Congrats on getting this far with the SSC drawings.  I can sympathize with the effort involved.  I'm currently scanning 30,000 8x10 builders photos negatives.  It takes time.

Based on the dozen SSC drawings in my collection, they do contain a bunch more data then you are showing.  The upper right corner typically identifies the quantity of cars ordered and by what RR, and sometimes the road numbers.

The title block has a date, please enter at least the year in one column and the whole date in another. This allows for a date range search, where as the whole dates search is very problematic. However the whole date is often helpful in gathering up the drawings for a specific car, since often all the drawings have the same date.

I understand that the naming convention is not always equal, but in order to help finding things, there needs to be some standardization.

In the spreadsheet I saw a lot of General Drawing.  The generic car construction term is General Arrangement drawing, often abbreviated as GA.
Underframe Arrangement is UF
Brake Arrangement is BA
The others, like End Arrangement, Side Arrangement, Top Arrangement, etc, are usually spelled out.

If you know the weight or gallons capacity, please place that in another column
If you know the road numbers please include them in another column

From my limited knowledge of SSC drawings, the required drawings are usually clustered together, rather than in families, like PS, BLW, Alco.
If there is a prior drawing that is referred to, please include that number in it's own column.
Consider a column for Materials, ie, Wood, Composite or Steel
Inside length would be helpful if known.

When more columns are used, the Data Filter function can be used, and it saves a lot of time. It can also be used to find spelling errors and other irregularities. Like MoPac vs MP.

No, I won't be at the bar CCB. My limo, with the big bag of cash, is stuck in a mid-west snow storm.

Being able to find a 6500 gallon Tank car built between 1917 and 1919 for UTLX is a lot easier with the extra columns.

I had to do this for a 50,000 unit locomotive roster.  Believe me, now when I'm looking for a 0-6-0, meter gage that went to a Cuban sugar plantation in the 1920's, I only get a few hits.

Keep up the good work.

Mark Landgraf


On Thursday, January 23, 2020, 4:20:57 PM EST, Bob Webber <rgz17@...> wrote:


I have an updated Standard Steel drawing list.  This list is both freight (from SS-0 - SS-99999) and Passenger (SS-100000 and above).

It can be found here:
http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/

FAQ:
  • Yes, there are a lot of inconsistencies - so's your old ma..er...Sometimes that's us, sometimes the original.  When this started over 20 years ago, there was no style sheet.  Come to think of it, there is none now.  
  • Yes, there are likely a lot of misspellings, incorrect abbreviations, and uncapitalized names.   Yep.  Yep.  I caught a lot of misspellings, but there are more lurking
  • The Metadata engine has no spell check, no mass replacement, and it can't figure out what the hell a Pries roof is.  Neither can I
  • This is ONLY Standard Steel.  Only 4500 or so drawings that have been scanned.   Yes I plan on doing Pullman Freight & Passenger, Osgood Bradley, Budd, Haskell & Barker and maybe Boeing, Ford and Airbus.  Not today
  • Don't see something that is referenced in a drawing - send me a private message.  Don't see something you want?  Ditto.  Don't see ACF?  Call St. Louis
  • You want full resolution tifs available for downloading free?  Meet me at the bar in the Cocoa Beach Hilton tonight - it may take me a while to get there, but we can talk about it then.
  • You want to order something but don't know how or how much? See http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/orderinfo.htm and https://www.irm.org/pullmanlibrary/price-list/ and http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/Form%20Customer%20Service%202.pdf
  • Want WHAT WHEN?????????   Meet me in the bar at the Cocoa Beach Hilton in 5 minutes...bring lots of unmarked bills...big denomination bills...i.e. CASH....I'll be there ASAP...Mike? When is the RPM next year?

All this is done by volunteers.  Multiple volunteers.  That means their input style is different, as is their spelling, abbreviations, etc.  No kidding tho - the originals are rife with the same thing.  Remember all this is supposed to happen with the work done in 1 6 hour day a week.  

We've added over 1000 Standard Steel drawings in the past 6 months.  We have other work happening all the time, including preparing for the big move.  

And remember, just like that good old cook on the AT&SF - be careful what you criticize, you will be given the job!

Bob Webber

Bob Webber
 

Oh man, when I show this to the crew on Wednesday, are we going to have some fun!  

I appreciate where you're coming from, and what you've done, but.  Simple answer.       NO!   or HELL NO if you prefer.

Look, 12 drawings - or 100 or 1000 does not an expert make.  The list shown is a very minute subset.  Your dozen drawings is an even smaller subset.  We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe.  They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use).  The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence.  (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number).  SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence.  Very similar.  IF you have the data on the tubes.  We do not.  They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year.  NOT by size.  We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it.  It is not in the caption information. 

Please note that the caption (which is that second column)  is only a part of the metadata captured.  We also put in a category, notes, author (which is drawer in this case), keywords and other data.  Why isn't that on the list?   Because that aspect of the database does not transport, and given the list - as is - took over 2 hours to create and clean up, I didn't put any of that in it.

Standardization.  Yes...a good idea, sort of.  The problem is, in your limited access to them, you have missed about 15 variants of "arrangement" and many of "general".  And, you are under the assumption, 1 person is entering the data, they are well versed on the subject, and that the SSC data block were standard.  They were not. 

This list is here because it is a VERY minor subset of the drawings scanned.  It represents less than 2% of drawings scanned.  We scanned over 300 drawings Wednesday.   Standard Motor Truck, Middleton Car, Pullman, Pullman-Standard.  All have VERY different data blocks and order info blocks.

What you ask is great - if it were even necessary.  It is not.  Just take Eric's database.  done.   Doesn't have enough information?  Ask Eric to provide you with a spreadsheet with all the information in it and, when you come to volunteer, add to it.   The reason we add the caption is not to find things the way you think we might, but we find drawings based on information supplied by the customer and/or Eric's list.  Combined, that's usually enough to find the drawing.  IF we have it. 

As I said - we work 1 6 hour shift (Nominally) per week.  That shift must include scanning, annotation, conserving, document processing, drawing processing, customer fulfillment, photo & negative processing, maintenance work, taking out the garbage (to the dumpster 2 miles away), preparing for the upcoming move of the 2 million drawings, the photos, negs, film, movies, slides, aperture cards, documents, reports, etc.  Now...you want to look - on screen - as we process 300 + drawings - for all of the information you desire.  Why? 

Look...I am prepared to leave as curator within a few years.  We have an opening for a volunteer.  Just come out on every Wednesday (we don't accept excuses like storms delaying us - we come rain, sleet, snow, sun, etc. limo or no) from now till then, learn the collections, learn the processes,  help with the move, etc. - and then take over as curator.  It sounds as though you're qualified.   Come on in.   But...be prepared, it is, as the MASH doctors told Charles it's "meatball surgery".  Our job is to get drawings to customers, internally and externally.  And conserve what we can.  That may mean anything from moving 15 cabinets full of donated maps one day, or simply cleaning the Library on another.  Who knows what fun might happen!?!   But by all means, contribute and you might find that you can not add all that data.  You may want to.  But there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.  


At 06:46 PM 1/23/2020, mark_landgraf via Groups.Io wrote:
Bob,

Congrats on getting this far with the SSC drawings.  I can sympathize with the effort involved.  I'm currently scanning 30,000 8x10 builders photos negatives.  It takes time.

Based on the dozen SSC drawings in my collection, they do contain a bunch more data then you are showing.  The upper right corner typically identifies the quantity of cars ordered and by what RR, and sometimes the road numbers.

The title block has a date, please enter at least the year in one column and the whole date in another. This allows for a date range search, where as the whole dates search is very problematic. However the whole date is often helpful in gathering up the drawings for a specific car, since often all the drawings have the same date.

I understand that the naming convention is not always equal, but in order to help finding things, there needs to be some standardization.

In the spreadsheet I saw a lot of General Drawing.  The generic car construction term is General Arrangement drawing, often abbreviated as GA.
Underframe Arrangement is UF
Brake Arrangement is BA
The others, like End Arrangement, Side Arrangement, Top Arrangement, etc, are usually spelled out.

If you know the weight or gallons capacity, please place that in another column
If you know the road numbers please include them in another column

From my limited knowledge of SSC drawings, the required drawings are usually clustered together, rather than in families, like PS, BLW, Alco.
If there is a prior drawing that is referred to, please include that number in it's own column.
Consider a column for Materials, ie, Wood, Composite or Steel
Inside length would be helpful if known.

When more columns are used, the Data Filter function can be used, and it saves a lot of time. It can also be used to find spelling errors and other irregularities. Like MoPac vs MP.

No, I won't be at the bar CCB. My limo, with the big bag of cash, is stuck in a mid-west snow storm.

Being able to find a 6500 gallon Tank car built between 1917 and 1919 for UTLX is a lot easier with the extra columns.

I had to do this for a 50,000 unit locomotive roster.  Believe me, now when I'm looking for a 0-6-0, meter gage that went to a Cuban sugar plantation in the 1920's, I only get a few hits.

Keep up the good work.

Mark Landgraf


On Thursday, January 23, 2020, 4:20:57 PM EST, Bob Webber <rgz17@...> wrote:


I have an updated Standard Steel drawing list.  This list is both freight (from SS-0 - SS-99999) and Passenger (SS-100000 and above).

It can be found here:
http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/

FAQ:
  • Yes, there are a lot of inconsistencies - so's your old ma..er...Sometimes that's us, sometimes the original.  When this started over 20 years ago, there was no style sheet.  Come to think of it, there is none now.  
  • Yes, there are likely a lot of misspellings, incorrect abbreviations, and uncapitalized names.   Yep.  Yep.  I caught a lot of misspellings, but there are more lurking
  • The Metadata engine has no spell check, no mass replacement, and it can't figure out what the hell a Pries roof is.  Neither can I
  • This is ONLY Standard Steel.  Only 4500 or so drawings that have been scanned.   Yes I plan on doing Pullman Freight & Passenger, Osgood Bradley, Budd, Haskell & Barker and maybe Boeing, Ford and Airbus.  Not today
  • Don't see something that is referenced in a drawing - send me a private message.  Don't see something you want?  Ditto.  Don't see ACF?  Call St. Louis
  • You want full resolution tifs available for downloading free?  Meet me at the bar in the Cocoa Beach Hilton tonight - it may take me a while to get there, but we can talk about it then.
  • You want to order something but don't know how or how much? See http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/orderinfo.htm and https://www.irm.org/pullmanlibrary/price-list/ and http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/Form%20Customer%20Service%202.pdf
  • Want WHAT WHEN?????????   Meet me in the bar at the Cocoa Beach Hilton in 5 minutes...bring lots of unmarked bills...big denomination bills...i.e. CASH....I'll be there ASAP...Mike? When is the RPM next year?

All this is done by volunteers.  Multiple volunteers.  That means their input style is different, as is their spelling, abbreviations, etc.  No kidding tho - the originals are rife with the same thing.  Remember all this is supposed to happen with the work done in 1 6 hour day a week.  

We've added over 1000 Standard Steel drawings in the past 6 months.  We have other work happening all the time, including preparing for the big move.  

And remember, just like that good old cook on the AT&SF - be careful what you criticize, you will be given the job!

Bob Webber

Bob Webber

Schleigh Mike
 

Thank you for this work, Bob!

And sharing your reality.  From my view of the world you have there, I find what you have presented very helpful.  Using this list, I have targeted another candidate for drawings and I readily found many of those you and Steve Hile recently extricated for me.  I can see how what you have done will help find sources quicker.  I also know from past experience that not everything is readily obvious as you dig deeper for details so some back-and-forth with the  customer will likely always be a part of the search process.

You have an incredible resource and I believe the list you have established will be helpful for future searches.

Now, if only Pressed Steel Car drawings were so accessible.

Regards from Grove City in western Penna.    Mike Schleigh



On Friday, January 24, 2020, 09:31:41 AM EST, Bob Webber <rgz17@...> wrote:


Oh man, when I show this to the crew on Wednesday, are we going to have some fun!  

I appreciate where you're coming from, and what you've done, but.  Simple answer.        NO!   or HELL NO if you prefer.

Look, 12 drawings - or 100 or 1000 does not an expert make.  The list shown is a very minute subset.  Your dozen drawings is an even smaller subset.  We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe.  They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use).  The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence.  (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number).  SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence.  Very similar.  IF you have the data on the tubes.  We do not.  They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year.  NOT by size.  We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it.  It is not in the caption information. 

Please note that the caption (which is that second column)  is only a part of the metadata captured.  We also put in a category, notes, author (which is drawer in this case), keywords and other data.  Why isn't that on the list?   Because that aspect of the database does not transport, and given the list - as is - took over 2 hours to create and clean up, I didn't put any of that in it.

Standardization.  Yes...a good idea, sort of.  The problem is, in your limited access to them, you have missed about 15 variants of "arrangement" and many of "general".  And, you are under the assumption, 1 person is entering the data, they are well versed on the subject, and that the SSC data block were standard.  They were not. 

This list is here because it is a VERY minor subset of the drawings scanned.  It represents less than 2% of drawings scanned.  We scanned over 300 drawings Wednesday.   Standard Motor Truck, Middleton Car, Pullman, Pullman-Standard.  All have VERY different data blocks and order info blocks.

What you ask is great - if it were even necessary.  It is not.  Just take Eric's database.  done.   Doesn't have enough information?  Ask Eric to provide you with a spreadsheet with all the information in it and, when you come to volunteer, add to it.   The reason we add the caption is not to find things the way you think we might, but we find drawings based on information supplied by the customer and/or Eric's list.  Combined, that's usually enough to find the drawing.  IF we have it. 

As I said - we work 1 6 hour shift (Nominally) per week.  That shift must include scanning, annotation, conserving, document processing, drawing processing, customer fulfillment, photo & negative processing, maintenance work, taking out the garbage (to the dumpster 2 miles away), preparing for the upcoming move of the 2 million drawings, the photos, negs, film, movies, slides, aperture cards, documents, reports, etc.  Now...you want to look - on screen - as we process 300 + drawings - for all of the information you desire.  Why? 

Look...I am prepared to leave as curator within a few years.  We have an opening for a volunteer.  Just come out on every Wednesday (we don't accept excuses like storms delaying us - we come rain, sleet, snow, sun, etc. limo or no) from now till then, learn the collections, learn the processes,  help with the move, etc. - and then take over as curator.  It sounds as though you're qualified.   Come on in.   But...be prepared, it is, as the MASH doctors told Charles it's "meatball surgery".  Our job is to get drawings to customers, internally and externally.  And conserve what we can.  That may mean anything from moving 15 cabinets full of donated maps one day, or simply cleaning the Library on another.  Who knows what fun might happen!?!   But by all means, contribute and you might find that you can not add all that data.  You may want to.  But there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.  


At 06:46 PM 1/23/2020, mark_landgraf via Groups.Io wrote:
Bob,

Congrats on getting this far with the SSC drawings.  I can sympathize with the effort involved.  I'm currently scanning 30,000 8x10 builders photos negatives.  It takes time.

Based on the dozen SSC drawings in my collection, they do contain a bunch more data then you are showing.  The upper right corner typically identifies the quantity of cars ordered and by what RR, and sometimes the road numbers.

The title block has a date, please enter at least the year in one column and the whole date in another. This allows for a date range search, where as the whole dates search is very problematic. However the whole date is often helpful in gathering up the drawings for a specific car, since often all the drawings have the same date.

I understand that the naming convention is not always equal, but in order to help finding things, there needs to be some standardization.

In the spreadsheet I saw a lot of General Drawing.  The generic car construction term is General Arrangement drawing, often abbreviated as GA.
Underframe Arrangement is UF
Brake Arrangement is BA
The others, like End Arrangement, Side Arrangement, Top Arrangement, etc, are usually spelled out.

If you know the weight or gallons capacity, please place that in another column
If you know the road numbers please include them in another column

From my limited knowledge of SSC drawings, the required drawings are usually clustered together, rather than in families, like PS, BLW, Alco.
If there is a prior drawing that is referred to, please include that number in it's own column.
Consider a column for Materials, ie, Wood, Composite or Steel
Inside length would be helpful if known.

When more columns are used, the Data Filter function can be used, and it saves a lot of time. It can also be used to find spelling errors and other irregularities. Like MoPac vs MP.

No, I won't be at the bar CCB. My limo, with the big bag of cash, is stuck in a mid-west snow storm.

Being able to find a 6500 gallon Tank car built between 1917 and 1919 for UTLX is a lot easier with the extra columns.

I had to do this for a 50,000 unit locomotive roster.  Believe me, now when I'm looking for a 0-6-0, meter gage that went to a Cuban sugar plantation in the 1920's, I only get a few hits.

Keep up the good work.

Mark Landgraf


On Thursday, January 23, 2020, 4:20:57 PM EST, Bob Webber <rgz17@...> wrote:


I have an updated Standard Steel drawing list.  This list is both freight (from SS-0 - SS-99999) and Passenger (SS-100000 and above).

It can be found here:
http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/

FAQ:
  • Yes, there are a lot of inconsistencies - so's your old ma..er...Sometimes that's us, sometimes the original.  When this started over 20 years ago, there was no style sheet.  Come to think of it, there is none now.  
  • Yes, there are likely a lot of misspellings, incorrect abbreviations, and uncapitalized names.   Yep.  Yep.  I caught a lot of misspellings, but there are more lurking
  • The Metadata engine has no spell check, no mass replacement, and it can't figure out what the hell a Pries roof is.  Neither can I
  • This is ONLY Standard Steel.  Only 4500 or so drawings that have been scanned.   Yes I plan on doing Pullman Freight & Passenger, Osgood Bradley, Budd, Haskell & Barker and maybe Boeing, Ford and Airbus.  Not today
  • Don't see something that is referenced in a drawing - send me a private message.  Don't see something you want?  Ditto.  Don't see ACF?  Call St. Louis
  • You want full resolution tifs available for downloading free?  Meet me at the bar in the Cocoa Beach Hilton tonight - it may take me a while to get there, but we can talk about it then.
  • You want to order something but don't know how or how much? See http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/orderinfo.htm and https://www.irm.org/pullmanlibrary/price-list/ and http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/Form%20Customer%20Service%202.pdf
  • Want WHAT WHEN?????????   Meet me in the bar at the Cocoa Beach Hilton in 5 minutes...bring lots of unmarked bills...big denomination bills...i.e. CASH....I'll be there ASAP...Mike? When is the RPM next year?

All this is done by volunteers.  Multiple volunteers.  That means their input style is different, as is their spelling, abbreviations, etc.  No kidding tho - the originals are rife with the same thing.  Remember all this is supposed to happen with the work done in 1 6 hour day a week.  

We've added over 1000 Standard Steel drawings in the past 6 months.  We have other work happening all the time, including preparing for the big move.  

And remember, just like that good old cook on the AT&SF - be careful what you criticize, you will be given the job!

Bob Webber

Bob Webber

Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 06:31 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe.  They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use).  The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence.  (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number).  SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence.  Very similar.  IF you have the data on the tubes.  We do not.  They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year.  NOT by size.  We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it.  It is not in the caption information. 
Bob,
Did Standard Steel Car NOT use a system of lot or order numbers? It seems to me this is the one piece of data that will quickly pull all the drawings for a particular car together, irregardless of the drawing numbering system. I suppose it's possible they didn't. Stranger things have happened; I recall one builder (Jackson and Sharp, IIRC) where each individual car had its own order number, similar to locomotive builder's numbers.  Yet, if their drawings still existed, that number should allow reference to all the drawings that pertain to the car.

Dennis Storzek

Steve and Barb Hile
 


Having looked at a lot, but not as many as Bob, of SSC drawings, both for the UTLX book and in my role as a volunteer at IRM, I can tell you that there is nothing on the drawings (for sure the GA drawings) that would link it to anything like a lot number or order number.  Neither have we uncovered anything that looks like a Bill of Material for a SSC lot.  Many GA drawings do refer to the railroad and number series of the cars built in the upper RH corner and will SOMETIMES list subsequent builds to that same drawing.

For sure, SSC recorded order numbers and other purchase data in some form, but we have not found that Rosetta stone, as of yet.

Eric Neubauer's exhaustive research into Pullman, Haskell and Barker, Standard Steel Car and Pullman Standard freight car builds contains a lot of good information that I use, extensively, as a key to knowing the GA, lot number, etc. when one of our customers asks for something based on road name and number series.  In the past year or so, we have been quite successful in finding GA drawings for Resin Car Works, Shake N Take and others.

Keith Retterer's SSC photo catalog also provides some important clues and my current project is to try and develop a searchable file that will combine information from these multiple sources.  When this file is ready, we will share it on the Library's web site, like the scanned drawing file that Bob has already referred to.

Bob, as curator of the Pullman Library, may be the youngest of the regular volunteers there, so his calls for others to help keep the flame alive are very real.

I have been extremely pleased, over the last 10-15 years to discover the various troves of primary source data, such as the Barriger Library and Museum of Transport in St. Louis (ACF) and the Pullman Library (Budd, PS, H&B, SSC, etc.)  One of the missing links would be a comparable source for General American items.

I hope that this is clear and helpful.  Be sure that if you contact us, directly, at the Pullman Library, we will do everything we can to assist you.

Steve Hile
Pullman Library Volunteer since 2015

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek
Sent: Jan 24, 2020 11:59 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Standard Steel Drawing List

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 06:31 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe.  They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use).  The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence.  (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number).  SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence.  Very similar.  IF you have the data on the tubes.  We do not.  They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year.  NOT by size.  We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it.  It is not in the caption information. 
Bob,
Did Standard Steel Car NOT use a system of lot or order numbers? It seems to me this is the one piece of data that will quickly pull all the drawings for a particular car together, irregardless of the drawing numbering system. I suppose it's possible they didn't. Stranger things have happened; I recall one builder (Jackson and Sharp, IIRC) where each individual car had its own order number, similar to locomotive builder's numbers.  Yet, if their drawings still existed, that number should allow reference to all the drawings that pertain to the car.

Dennis Storzek

Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 09:36 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Having looked at a lot, but not as many as Bob, of SSC drawings, both for the UTLX book and in my role as a volunteer at IRM, I can tell you that there is nothing on the drawings (for sure the GA drawings) that would link it to anything like a lot number or order number. 
That is disappointing. SSC undoubtedly had a lot, order, or job number for billing purposes if nothing else, and undoubtedly had a list of drawings included in the Bill of Materials, but their failure to include the number on the drawings means you can't start there to find related drawings, you need the drawing list. Lets hope in comes to light some day.


Dennis

Dennis Storzek
 

I only see four drawings listed for the Soo Line, searching both by common name and corporate initials. This isn't surprising, as the Soo bought very little from SSC, but begs the question, is Siems Stembel production included in the SSC list?

Dennis

Bob Webber
 

Thanks, Mike (there might actually be a couple of interest, we found another tube in that sequence).

I don't know who has the Pressed Steel drawings - Keith has some photos, but I tried locating the PSC (and other manuf. drawings) years back - to no avail.  As Steve mentioned, General American and such are another good target.   I've tried contacting them, and received no reply (a not uncommon result).  There are other drawings, past the era of this list that I've been working on as well.  

Some may say "Why" after what I tried to provide today.  The answer is simple - I don't care WHO has them, I want them accessible.  Though some feel the hobby has passed them by, I find them very useful and...well...to be honest, many are works of art.

A lot of the issues with access will gradually dissipate as we are able to get the drawings in one place, and, hopefully, in flat files, indexed and in order.   I want to recreate the order SSC had - by sequence number, within drawer numbers.  

Toward that end, we have, as I said, been adding the drawer number to the drawing metadata.   More data is not added until we get the collections management software, where there are buckets for more.  Right now, and I should have made this clear yesterday - there is more data being capture than what is shown in that list, but are not in the list due to portability issues with the database (that is, they don't port outside of the database well). 

We did, thanks to you and another customer, try to locate all of the freight car drawings from a given series (all the 53nnn) - we have about scanned some 70 of them, located more (but who needs rivets, hand grabs, chain, etc.?).  We did that in an effort to understand the system that was used, and our "slice" of the SSC pie (Harrisburg has the other slice, in terms of drawings)..  We hope to add to the collection data - as Steve mentions, he's working on a SSC master list that will make many queries like yours, much easier.  

If anyone knows of the location of the PSC, BSC or other steam era freight car drawings or photos, let me know.  I want to add the information and access "rules" to the research page.   Thanks (yes, I know about Mid-Continent's wonderful pages, and have linked them)...
'


At 09:34 AM 1/24/2020, you wrote:
Thank you for this work, Bob!

And sharing your reality.  From my view of the world you have there, I find what you have presented very helpful.  Using this list, I have targeted another candidate for drawings and I readily found many of those you and Steve Hile recently extricated for me.  I can see how what you have done will help find sources quicker.  I also know from past experience that not everything is readily obvious as you dig deeper for details so some back-and-forth with the  customer will likely always be a part of the search process.

You have an incredible resource and I believe the list you have established will be helpful for future searches.

Now, if only Pressed Steel Car drawings were so accessible.

Regards from Grove City in western Penna.    Mike Schleigh

Bob Webber

Bob Webber
 

Dennis, I think Steve answered this, but I'll expound.  SSC *must have* had Lot and order info (in fact we know they did - well maybe - they might be railroads' Lot numbers).  In very few drawings is such even mentioned.  About 60% of what we found have car numbers series.  There are oft times 2 dates, one the drawing was produced, one the order was processed.   But Lots?  Not so much.  Same with early H&B drawings, as you've seen. 

We have no key to SSC - we don't have drawing lists (though there is a book in Harrisburg that has them) nor correspondence.  We have Eric's lists and occasionaly, roger will provide us with drawing numbers he's gleaned from trips to Harrisburg.

There is no one number evident in the drawings to tie drawings together with.    SOMETIMES, there will be reference to other drawings on a given drawing, sometimes, they'll reference the railroad or other manufacturer drawing number (Common Standard, AT&SF, AC&F, etc.). 

There is the drawer number, which pertains to size and sequence, and the sequential number.  As far as we know, at this time, that's it.  

Keith uses a number found on the negatives, but those appear to be merely sequential negative numbers, by plant.   There are some Lot numbers I have found through various sources.  But not the drawings themselves.   Why they didn't add them, I don't know.  SSC had some strange behaviors - they re-drew vendor drawings, for instance, whereas Pullman simply referred to them (better for us though).  They re-drew their own drawings rather than refer to them.  We hope this process will provide us with some insights!


At 10:59 AM 1/24/2020, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 06:31 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe.  They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use).  The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence.  (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number).  SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence.  Very similar.  IF you have the data on the tubes.  We do not.  They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year.  NOT by size.  We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it.  It is not in the caption information.

Bob,
Did Standard Steel Car NOT use a system of lot or order numbers? It seems to me this is the one piece of data that will quickly pull all the drawings for a particular car together, irregardless of the drawing numbering system. I suppose it's possible they didn't. Stranger things have happened; I recall one builder (Jackson and Sharp, IIRC) where each individual car had its own order number, similar to locomotive builder's numbers.  Yet, if their drawings still existed, that number should allow reference to all the drawings that pertain to the car.

Dennis Storzek

Bob Webber

Bob Webber
 

Dennis, I have said, more than a few times, any bureaucracy I have been associated with has ALWAYS used some form of authorizing instrument/number.  Lot, Order, Job Order, Construction Order - SOMETHING. 

Yet...as an example, Pullman Co. did not apply their authorizing information on the hundreds of drawings for the rebuild cars done by Pullman (NOT Pullman-Standard) in the 30s and 40s.  Nothing.  Many times, they have drawings without the car owner/name/number indicated.  So...it's not impossible, or necessarily unique not to have that on drawings. 


At 12:07 PM 1/24/2020, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 09:36 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Having looked at a lot, but not as many as Bob, of SSC drawings, both for the UTLX book and in my role as a volunteer at IRM, I can tell you that there is nothing on the drawings (for sure the GA drawings) that would link it to anything like a lot number or order number.

That is disappointing. SSC undoubtedly had a lot, order, or job number for billing purposes if nothing else, and undoubtedly had a list of drawings included in the Bill of Materials, but their failure to include the number on the drawings means you can't start there to find related drawings, you need the drawing list. Lets hope in comes to light some day.


Dennis

Bob Webber

Bob Webber
 

It is not (and we have at least 1 SS Soo stencil drawing scanned).  SS, Fink, Baltimore Car and a few other, small ones have a smattering of drawings that we have been indexing slowly.  A few dozen tubes.  Middleton car has over 500 tubes and a number of flat files.  Osgood Bradley has hundreds of tubes (thousands, actually) and dozens of drawers (of anywhere from 100 to 1000 drawings per drawer).  When we move (old refrain, I know) these will be separated and indexed. 

Now...it can also be because we simply have had no call to find anything in those series.  We did the one series (53nnn) as an experiment to see how many drawings we had in that series.   But, for the most part, we have not done wholesale scanning of SSC.  If someone asks for a given tube, we are now trying to scan all drawings in tubes we drag over - we've scanned about 100 complete tubes, maybe more.


At 12:33 PM 1/24/2020, Dennis Storzek wrote:
I only see four drawings listed for the Soo Line, searching both by common name and corporate initials. This isn't surprising, as the Soo bought very little from SSC, but begs the question, is Siems Stembel production included in the SSC list?

Dennis

Bob Webber

Ed Hawkins
 



On Jan 24, 2020, at 12:07 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 09:36 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Having looked at a lot, but not as many as Bob, of SSC drawings, both for the UTLX book and in my role as a volunteer at IRM, I can tell you that there is nothing on the drawings (for sure the GA drawings) that would link it to anything like a lot number or order number. 
That is disappointing. SSC undoubtedly had a lot, order, or job number for billing purposes if nothing else, and undoubtedly had a list of drawings included in the Bill of Materials, but their failure to include the number on the drawings means you can't start there to find related drawings, you need the drawing list. Lets hope in comes to light some day.

Dennis & Steve,
From experience of cataloguing thousands of ACF drawings as well as seeing a substantial number of Pullman-Standard drawings, it was typical that drawings used to manufacture parts or assemblies received a lot number (or similar term each builder used for compiling their order list). Several thousand ACF drawings were created with the purpose of developing a new design, but if the design didn’t materialize with actual hardware the drawings received no lot number. Still other drawings were developed at the request of a customer for purposes of making a cost estimate, but these drawings were not assigned lot numbers if a production order didn’t follow. Similarly “blank” lot number on ACF drawings occurred when an order originally had drawings annotated with a lot number and in some cases production had begun, only to be erased if when the order was canceled. 

Numerous freight car diagrams reference what I believe Standard Steel Car Co. called an Office Order (O.O.) number, a term that Greenville Steel Car Co. & Pressed Steel Car Co. also used to document orders received. While I suppose anything is possible, it would surprise me if SSC drawings used to manufacture production parts or assemblies did not reference an O.O. number. If not, surely SSC used another method to cross-reference orders & the drawings that applied. 

For the years I’m most familiar with (1923 to early 1930s), SSC order numbers were typically chronologically-assigned using a separately numbering system for each plant the cars were assigned to be built. These plant locations included Butler, Pa., Hammond, Ind., and others SSC acquired over time. Some SSC order numbers on freight car diagrams are denoted with a letter prefix. The prefix may have always been part of the official SSC order list, however, I’ve seen many references to SSC O.O. numbers that didn’t include a prefix letter. Prefix letters “E”, “F” & "G” followed by 4 numerical digits commonly used for freight cars known to be built at Butler in the 1920s to 1931. Prefix letter “H” followed by 3 numerical digits are referenced on some Rock Island diagrams built at Hammond, while NKP diagrams had Hammond-built cars assigned a 5-digit number without any letter prefix.

In 2002 Eric Neubauer published a spiral-bound booklet “Pullman-Standard Freight Car Production, Including Predecessors.” Starting on page 130 it lists SSC production 1902 to the early 1930s. Included are O.O. numbers for those Eric knew at the time.  In the 18 years subsequent to that publication I’m reasonably sure that Eric has since located additional order numbers. 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Steve and Barb Hile
 

One small addendum:  For those attending the Springfield meet this weekend and visiting Bob's Photos room, he may well have available our Pullman Library example drawings books to view.  There are a number of drawings from both Pullman and Standard Steel Car that provide, in a reduced size, examples of what we have to work with at IRM.  Ask Bob to see them, if he has them with him.  We believe that they left CCB with him a couple of weeks ago.

Steve Hile

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Jan 24, 2020 12:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Standard Steel Drawing List


Having looked at a lot, but not as many as Bob, of SSC drawings, both for the UTLX book and in my role as a volunteer at IRM, I can tell you that there is nothing on the drawings (for sure the GA drawings) that would link it to anything like a lot number or order number.  Neither have we uncovered anything that looks like a Bill of Material for a SSC lot.  Many GA drawings do refer to the railroad and number series of the cars built in the upper RH corner and will SOMETIMES list subsequent builds to that same drawing.

For sure, SSC recorded order numbers and other purchase data in some form, but we have not found that Rosetta stone, as of yet.

Eric Neubauer's exhaustive research into Pullman, Haskell and Barker, Standard Steel Car and Pullman Standard freight car builds contains a lot of good information that I use, extensively, as a key to knowing the GA, lot number, etc. when one of our customers asks for something based on road name and number series.  In the past year or so, we have been quite successful in finding GA drawings for Resin Car Works, Shake N Take and others.

Keith Retterer's SSC photo catalog also provides some important clues and my current project is to try and develop a searchable file that will combine information from these multiple sources.  When this file is ready, we will share it on the Library's web site, like the scanned drawing file that Bob has already referred to.

Bob, as curator of the Pullman Library, may be the youngest of the regular volunteers there, so his calls for others to help keep the flame alive are very real.

I have been extremely pleased, over the last 10-15 years to discover the various troves of primary source data, such as the Barriger Library and Museum of Transport in St. Louis (ACF) and the Pullman Library (Budd, PS, H&B, SSC, etc.)  One of the missing links would be a comparable source for General American items.

I hope that this is clear and helpful.  Be sure that if you contact us, directly, at the Pullman Library, we will do everything we can to assist you.

Steve Hile
Pullman Library Volunteer since 2015
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek
Sent: Jan 24, 2020 11:59 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Standard Steel Drawing List

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 06:31 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe.  They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use).  The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence.  (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number).  SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence.  Very similar.  IF you have the data on the tubes.  We do not.  They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year.  NOT by size.  We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it.  It is not in the caption information. 
Bob,
Did Standard Steel Car NOT use a system of lot or order numbers? It seems to me this is the one piece of data that will quickly pull all the drawings for a particular car together, irregardless of the drawing numbering system. I suppose it's possible they didn't. Stranger things have happened; I recall one builder (Jackson and Sharp, IIRC) where each individual car had its own order number, similar to locomotive builder's numbers.  Yet, if their drawings still existed, that number should allow reference to all the drawings that pertain to the car.

Dennis Storzek

Bob Webber
 

Or better, not!  Steve I forgot to tell you. Bob left them at the hotel, they are now safely back in union.  They'll be added to and displayed at various meets, including cocoa Beach, Collinsville and perhaps others as well.....

Sent from BlueMail

On Jan 24, 2020, at 4:55 PM, Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:
One small addendum:  For those attending the Springfield meet this weekend and visiting Bob's Photos room, he may well have available our Pullman Library example drawings books to view.  There are a number of drawings from both Pullman and Standard Steel Car that provide, in a reduced size, examples of what we have to work with at IRM.  Ask Bob to see them, if he has them with him.  We believe that they left CCB with him a couple of weeks ago.

Steve Hile

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Oops.  Now I know!!

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Webber
Sent: Jan 24, 2020 6:00 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Standard Steel Drawing List

Or better, not!  Steve I forgot to tell you. Bob left them at the hotel, they are now safely back in union.  They'll be added to and displayed at various meets, including cocoa Beach, Collinsville and perhaps others as well.....

Sent from BlueMail
On Jan 24, 2020, at 4:55 PM, Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:
One small addendum:  For those attending the Springfield meet this weekend and visiting Bob's Photos room, he may well have available our Pullman Library example drawings books to view.  There are a number of drawings from both Pullman and Standard Steel Car that provide, in a reduced size, examples of what we have to work with at IRM.  Ask Bob to see them, if he has them with him.  We believe that they left CCB with him a couple of weeks ago.

Steve Hile