Topics

Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

David W Beidle
 

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."

I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.

 

Dave Beidle

St Louis

 

 

Guy Wilber
 

Jim Betz wrote:

“The tie downs were actually different sizes of steel cable and that was produced in the factory. I'm guessing you can build a twisting jig that is similar to what they use at the factory to produce evenly twisted cable ...”

Jim,

No such material was used in the 1900-1960 era. Cable was allowed to secure rotating shovels and cranes and that was about the extent of its use during that period.

A good number of the members of this list have collected MCBA, ARA and AAR Open Top Loading Manuals and typically the factual information is distributed throughout the group. These rules were mandatory and if not followed (to the minimum described figures) any receiving road could refuse the load, or adjust the load and charge the delivering road for time and materials to bring it up to prescribed standards.

I would suggest that all who are truly interested In prototypical open top loads obtain a manual and utilize it. Additionally, narrow the revised edition closely to your modeling era as many diagrams were modified, or newly added, especially after World War II.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

Richard Townsend
 

Apparently its been around since at least the 1920, or even earlier: https://www.madeinchicagomuseum.com/single-post/signode

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: David W Beidle <gmnodave@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."
I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.
 
Dave Beidle
St Louis
 
 

Jack Mullen
 

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 07:53 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:

According to https://patents.google.com/patent/US3421951

The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966.

Sorry, but both that statement and the implication that steel strapping is a post-steam era technology are wrong. The patent cited is for an improvement in the metallurgy of steel strap. Basic patents for steel strapping technology such as the tensioning tool and crimp fasteners go back to at least 1917. (Use of steel strapping itself to bind and reinforce crates goes back much farther, with the strapping fastened by nailing.)  
Here are a couple early ones.  A patent search for "signode" as assignee will find hundreds more.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1376855A
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1495995A
The Signode Steel Strapping Co. was the pioneer of modern steel strapping.  While early applications were in packaging - banding crates, bales, bundles of pipe, etc., by WW2 steel strapping was being used for securing loads. I have a scan of a photo of a PRR GRA gon with a load of crates strapped to the car, circa 1943.
Signode's Chicago plant was adjacent to the C&NW. When travelling past in the late '50s or early '60s, I always looked for the cars on their spur. They had an old single-sheathed boxcar and a composite gon loaded with concrete slabs. There was a steep ramp at the stub end of the spur, and apparently the cars were used for impact testing for R&D, by winching one car up grade and letting it roll into the other. I was never lucky enough to see it happen, but I did notice that the cars had changed position at times.

Jack Mullen

Dave Parker
 

As always, I find Guy's advice concerning MCB/ARA/AAR standards and rules to be sound and helpful.  I spent a bit of time paging through my 1928 to 1932 ARA Proceedings to get some sense of how much the open-top loading rules changed over time.  In that period, they don't appear to have been overhauled, but substantive changes were recommended by the LR committee almost every year.

It doesn't seem that complete copies of the booklet for any given year are conveniently available.  I did check the CSRM archives, and they do list a few editions.  In the1920s and 30s, these were hefty documents -- 250 pages and more  -- so they are not trivial to have scanned or copied. 

I am sure I have missed some, but digitized versions in the usual places (Google Books, Hathi Trust) seem very scarce, at least for pre-WWII.  I did find the 1934 edition at Hathi, which is a great find for a 1934 modeler!  Are there other years out there in accessible places?

I'm not sure what the difference is between steel strapping and bands, but I did notice quite a few references to the latter in my wanderings.  Here is an interesting example from the 1931 Proceedings:



--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Tony Thompson
 

Usual history is that WW II greatly increased awareness and use of steel strapping.
Tony Thompson 


On Oct 16, 2019, at 5:33 AM, Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend@...> wrote:


Apparently its been around since at least the 1920, or even earlier: https://www.madeinchicagomuseum.com/single-post/signode

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: David W Beidle <gmnodave@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."
I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.
 
Dave Beidle
St Louis
 
 

earlyrail
 

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties
From: Douglas Harding
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:53:04 PDT

According to https://patents.google.com/patent/US3421951

The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966.



This can not be true.
I help my dad apply steel strapping in the mid to late 50's.
Dad was a car inspector/repairman for the CGW in Randolph, MN at the time.
They had all the strapping, clips and tools required.

Howard Garner

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Ray Breyer
 

Nope. Read the patent: this is specifically for extra strong strapping with a specific material composition. The patent text specifically refers to other strapping commonly found on the market in at least two places.

10 seconds on GP kicked back your date to 1920.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 09:53:14 PM CDT, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:


According to https://patents.google.com/patent/US3421951

The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Dave,
 
Dave wrote: "I did find the 1934 edition at Hathi, which is a great find for a 1934 modeler!"
 
Any chance you can provide a link so others can have a look as well?
 
Thanks in advance.
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

As always, I find Guy's advice concerning MCB/ARA/AAR standards and rules to be sound and helpful.  I spent a bit of time paging through my 1928 to 1932 ARA Proceedings to get some sense of how much the open-top loading rules changed over time.  In that period, they don't appear to have been overhauled, but substantive changes were recommended by the LR committee almost every year.

It doesn't seem that complete copies of the booklet for any given year are conveniently available.  I did check the CSRM archives, and they do list a few editions.  In the1920s and 30s, these were hefty documents -- 250 pages and more  -- so they are not trivial to have scanned or copied. 

I am sure I have missed some, but digitized versions in the usual places (Google Books, Hathi Trust) seem very scarce, at least for pre-WWII.  I did find the 1934 edition at Hathi, which is a great find for a 1934 modeler!  Are there other years out there in accessible places?

I'm not sure what the difference is between steel strapping and bands, but I did notice quite a few references to the latter in my wanderings.  Here is an interesting example from the 1931 Proceedings:



--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Dave Parker
 

Claus:

Here is the link to the 1934 Loading Rules:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

Anybody can peruse the document on-line, but you need to belong to a member institution to download the PDF.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

James SANDIFER
 

36 gauge magnet wire, like we use on 403 LEDs.

 

By the way, when did the railroad begin shipping corrugated pipe like in the photo. Being a specific modeler, I want to confirm the time frame for such shipments. Likewise be careful of painting the ends of pipe or wood if you model the steam era.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Allen Montgomery via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

I would use leftover thread from a Jaeger lumber load. Or you could use Pele's electrician tape idea. Never had luck with that myself.

 

Allen Montgomery

 

 

 

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 8:48:31 AM MST, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

 

 

I'm modeling several open car loads in HO scale.

The prototype examples I'm following show that wire is used above the load to tie the top of the stakes that secure the load from lateral movement.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to simulate the wires?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Nelson Moyer
 

I love it. Every time we get a definitive answer to a question, new material surfaces to disprove it. I guess I’ll keep my steel strap aka chart tape.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 11:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Apparently its been around since at least the 1920, or even earlier: https://www.madeinchicagomuseum.com/single-post/signode

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David W Beidle <gmnodave@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."

I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.

 

Dave Beidle

St Louis

 

 

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

Douglas Harding
 

This program will allow you to download entire books from hathitrust, even if you do not belong to a member institution.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/hathidownloadhelper/

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Claus:

Here is the link to the 1934 Loading Rules:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

Anybody can peruse the document on-line, but you need to belong to a member institution to download the PDF.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Bruce Smith
 

Steve,

The reweigh on the NYC flat carrying the corrugated pipes appear to be “10-43” which would mean circa 1945 at the latest ;)

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Oct 16, 2019, at 10:36 AM, James SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

36 gauge magnet wire, like we use on 403 LEDs. 
 
By the way, when did the railroad begin shipping corrugated pipe like in the photo. Being a specific modeler, I want to confirm the time frame for such shipments. Likewise be careful of painting the ends of pipe or wood if you model the steam era. 

Tim O'Connor
 


Circa 1950




On 10/16/2019 7:06 AM, earlyrail wrote:
Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties
From: Douglas Harding
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:53:04 PDT

According to https://patents.google.com/patent/US3421951

The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966.



This can not be true.
I help my dad apply steel strapping in the mid to late 50's.
Dad was a car inspector/repairman for the CGW in Randolph, MN at the time.
They had all the strapping, clips and tools required.

Howard Garner


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Nelson Moyer
 

I downloaded and installed the download helper program, and when I enter the book URL, I get an invalid URL message.

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

 

This URL isn’t working. What am I doing wrong?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

This program will allow you to download entire books from hathitrust, even if you do not belong to a member institution.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/hathidownloadhelper/

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Claus:

Here is the link to the 1934 Loading Rules:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

Anybody can peruse the document on-line, but you need to belong to a member institution to download the PDF.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Nelson Moyer
 

Never mind. I figured out that I need to use the Permanent Ling to This Book URL. It’s now working.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 3:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

I downloaded and installed the download helper program, and when I enter the book URL, I get an invalid URL message.

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

 

This URL isn’t working. What am I doing wrong?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

This program will allow you to download entire books from hathitrust, even if you do not belong to a member institution.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/hathidownloadhelper/

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Claus:

Here is the link to the 1934 Loading Rules:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

Anybody can peruse the document on-line, but you need to belong to a member institution to download the PDF.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

Dennis Storzek
 

A few rambling thoughts on strapping vs. banding vs. wire...

Are banding and strapping the same? I think not. Banding is the general term for a much older product, which was soft mild steel. Back in my formative years, during the seventies I worked as a construction carpenter on several poured-in-place concrete buildings. We always had a roll of "band iron" for use in situations where form ties just wouldn't work. This was thin mild steel, and the "band puller" was a foot long handle with a hinged jaw at the end. You nailed down one end of the band and threaded the other through the puller, which was hooked around a corner and the handle used to apply leverage. The other end of the band was then nailed down. Two nails were enough; where the nail pierced the metal became a stress concentrator and the band would break at the hole before the nails would pull out. I still have my band puller in the garage somewhere, but I haven't had anything to pull with it in the last forty five years.

Modern steel strapping is semi hard high tensile steel. You won't be driving nails through that. The beauty of the Signode system and those that came after is the design of the buckle and the tool that deforms the buckle and both layers of strapping where they overlap. Tension is provided with another tool that grasps both layers of strapping and pulls one over the other, then the crimp through the buckle keeps them from sliding back

Wire (round steel wire, not cable) was the traditional tension tie because it could be installed with minimal tools. The wire, or multiple strands of wire, were looped around the pair of stakes and either spliced to themselves or both ends fastened to the same stake. A bar or pipe could then be inserted in the loop, and the wires twisted together. The more they were twisted, the shorter they became, pulling the stakes together and developing tension between them. The bar or pipe was then secured so the wires could not untwist. Simple and effective. 

Dennis  Storzek

gary laakso
 

Here is a picture of a Chad Boas GN flat car with an ancient, as in 28 plus years. load of galvanized pipe with straps.  The vendor was Jamiko,( spelling), in a blue and white box.  The material is a synthetic and came in a roll and was used both for a lumber load and for the galvanized pipe.  Likely, the material is available in a craft store. 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

Douglas Harding
 

Yes it appears my message was in haste, warranting further research. I thank everyone for correcting my error and offering proof of much earlier use of metal strapping.

 

Based on this new information I too can begin using the chart tape on some loads.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

I love it. Every time we get a definitive answer to a question, new material surfaces to disprove it. I guess I’ll keep my steel strap aka chart tape.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 11:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Apparently its been around since at least the 1920, or even earlier: https://www.madeinchicagomuseum.com/single-post/signode

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David W Beidle <gmnodave@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."

I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.

 

Dave Beidle

St Louis

 

 

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.