Topics

Swift paint scheme

Richard Townsend
 

I my on-going research into the Swift & Co. freight car fleet, I have found this photo: http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/reefer/srlx12824main.html

I am in a quandary about its paint scheme. At first look the car appears to have dark sides with light lettering. Perhaps like the bright red cars with white lettering that included the large banner "Swift" to the right of the door. But the lettering on this car is the same style as used on Swift reefers two paint schemes before the all red sides.

On closer examination, I think there may be an optical illusion at work here. Notice the reporting marks and car number on the side. They appear to grade into a dark color. So I'm thinking the "lightness" of the lettering might just be an artifact of how the light is reflecting off the (glossy) paint used for the lettering. It might just be a yellow-sided car with black lettering.

What says the throbbing brain of the RealSTMFC group?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR

Steve and Barb Hile
 

We have puzzled over this one, too.  Besides the Steam Era Website photo, I ran into it on Wiki site, too.
 
Here's my  two cents worth.  It would certainly appear that everything on the car end, from the fascia down to the end sill is the same color, presumably dark (freight car red), based on the lighter (white) lettering.
 
If you then look around the car corner, into the shadowed side of the car, the items that wrap around the corner, such as the facial and the corner strap are all darker in the shadow side.  So, I will assume that the whole car side is dark and the lettering is white, and not an optical illusion.
 
The 12000 series cars (with, apparently, fish belly underframes) are noted as being renumbered into the 40000 series as a footnote in the January 1925 ORER.  I understand that Swift had contracted with Quaker to do this conversion, which led to GAT's involvement, as it purchased Quaker later in the late 1920's.  So, that puts some upper date limit on the photo.
 
Other theories are most welcome.
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 9:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

I my on-going research into the Swift & Co. freight car fleet, I have found this photo: http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/reefer/srlx12824main.html

I am in a quandary about its paint scheme. At first look the car appears to have dark sides with light lettering. Perhaps like the bright red cars with white lettering that included the large banner "Swift" to the right of the door. But the lettering on this car is the same style as used on Swift reefers two paint schemes before the all red sides.

On closer examination, I think there may be an optical illusion at work here. Notice the reporting marks and car number on the side. They appear to grade into a dark color. So I'm thinking the "lightness" of the lettering might just be an artifact of how the light is reflecting off the (glossy) paint used for the lettering. It might just be a yellow-sided car with black lettering.

What says the throbbing brain of the RealSTMFC group?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR

Douglas Harding
 

Richard a group of us gathered at Chicagoland last Friday to discuss the Swift reefer fleet. This included looking at photos both Steve Hile and I had collected. The photo you asked about is one that had us puzzled as it does not match any of known paint schemes. However I have seen one other photo that appears to have a Swift reefer with the same paint scheme.

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A86.16.109/from_search/0e627706c76dfa0bd1e3411e89500dfc-91

 

Based on the Chevy billboard I would say the photo is circa 1952. Look at the reefer on the lower left. It appears to have the same paint scheme, dark color (red?) with while/light lettering. I can’t make out the number, but it is a four digit number and looks like it might begin with 4, which would put it in the largest block of Swift reefers in the early 50s, 3500-5199 with 1517 cars in the 1953 ORER.

 

The P/L schemes appears to be a solid red, with white lettering/font that matches the black lettering/font on yellow cars, right down to the word “refrigerator” on the right of the door. Which is odd as the word refrigerator is on the left side as well. The new 1950 P/L scheme was red cars with the white fascia board that had white lettering that with the word “Swift” in very large letters on the right side of the door, just like the red banner found on the 1948 paint scheme.

 

I going to guess that Swift experimented with their new red P/L scheme before settling on the final design. The car you asked about, SRLX 12624, has the small word refrigerator on the right side, not the large banner sized Swift. So this may have been a transition design that lost out to the large banner size “Swift”.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 9:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

 

I my on-going research into the Swift & Co. freight car fleet, I have found this photo: http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/reefer/srlx12824main.html

 

I am in a quandary about its paint scheme. At first look the car appears to have dark sides with light lettering. Perhaps like the bright red cars with white lettering that included the large banner "Swift" to the right of the door. But the lettering on this car is the same style as used on Swift reefers two paint schemes before the all red sides.

 

On closer examination, I think there may be an optical illusion at work here. Notice the reporting marks and car number on the side. They appear to grade into a dark color. So I'm thinking the "lightness" of the lettering might just be an artifact of how the light is reflecting off the (glossy) paint used for the lettering. It might just be a yellow-sided car with black lettering.

 

What says the throbbing brain of the RealSTMFC group?

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

Richard Townsend
 

Well that photo seems pretty definitive. Curiouser and curiouser. And another reason I wish I had gone to Chicagoland. Thanks for the info.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2019 8:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

Richard a group of us gathered at Chicagoland last Friday to discuss the Swift reefer fleet. This included looking at photos both Steve Hile and I had collected. The photo you asked about is one that had us puzzled as it does not match any of known paint schemes. However I have seen one other photo that appears to have a Swift reefer with the same paint scheme.
 
Based on the Chevy billboard I would say the photo is circa 1952. Look at the reefer on the lower left. It appears to have the same paint scheme, dark color (red?) with while/light lettering. I can’t make out the number, but it is a four digit number and looks like it might begin with 4, which would put it in the largest block of Swift reefers in the early 50s, 3500-5199 with 1517 cars in the 1953 ORER.
 
The P/L schemes appears to be a solid red, with white lettering/font that matches the black lettering/font on yellow cars, right down to the word “refrigerator” on the right of the door. Which is odd as the word refrigerator is on the left side as well. The new 1950 P/L scheme was red cars with the white fascia board that had white lettering that with the word “Swift” in very large letters on the right side of the door, just like the red banner found on the 1948 paint scheme.
 
I going to guess that Swift experimented with their new red P/L scheme before settling on the final design. The car you asked about, SRLX 12624, has the small word refrigerator on the right side, not the large banner sized Swift. So this may have been a transition design that lost out to the large banner size “Swift”.
 
Doug  Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 9:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme
 
I my on-going research into the Swift & Co. freight car fleet, I have found this photo: http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/reefer/srlx12824main.html
 
I am in a quandary about its paint scheme. At first look the car appears to have dark sides with light lettering. Perhaps like the bright red cars with white lettering that included the large banner "Swift" to the right of the door. But the lettering on this car is the same style as used on Swift reefers two paint schemes before the all red sides.
 
On closer examination, I think there may be an optical illusion at work here. Notice the reporting marks and car number on the side. They appear to grade into a dark color. So I'm thinking the "lightness" of the lettering might just be an artifact of how the light is reflecting off the (glossy) paint used for the lettering. It might just be a yellow-sided car with black lettering.
 
What says the throbbing brain of the RealSTMFC group?
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 

Dave Parker
 

As Steve noted, Swift apparently renumbered the 12000-12999 series cars into the 40000 series sometime in 1925.  But, the 12000 series was repopulated with cars sometime between 12/30 and 7/34 (based on my ORERs).  From then through 1945 at least, this series contained five or more sub-series with small variations in dimensions and capacity, suggesting a mix of cars from differing origins. It does not appear in my 1/54 register.

In addition, the switch from SRL to SRLX dates to 1934-35, with completion by 1938.  The photo of 12624 on the old steam era website (and on Wiki) has the SLRX reporting mark and KC brakes.  It also bears a full list of equipment on the car end, a practice that many owners dropped with the adoption of the 1927 ARA lettering standards.  Swift seems to have been an exception in that the early 1930s builders' photos in Hendrickson and Kaminski all show that list on the end.  Photos from the 1950s seem to show a more limited two lines of data on the ends.

If I had to throw a dart at it, I'd say that photo is late 1930s or early 1940s.   As to why it's FCC (or red) rather yellow, I have no inkling.

Hope this helps.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 08:30 PM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
If you then look around the car corner, into the shadowed side of the car, the items that wrap around the corner, such as the facial and the corner strap are all darker in the shadow side.  So, I will assume that the whole car side is dark and the lettering is white, and not an optical illusion.
There is one argument against this theory; there IS black (or at least dark) lettering on the car side. Look just to the left of the third from the bottom grab that makes the side ladder, and you will see the top line of the dimensional data as light colored lettering. The next couple lines are missing as the lettering morphs to a graytone that matches the side, then the bottom two lines are faintly visible as dark lettering. Same with the reporting marks, the top line (or bar) and SRLX appear light, the number is missing, but then the bottom line appears dark.

I think we are being fooled by a photo taken on orthchromatic film, which typically turns yellows very dark. I am very familiar with photos of Soo Line reefers that appear to have absolutely no lettering other than the $ herald; the black lettering and yellow side are both rendered as the same graytine. Looking at the subject photo, both the side fascia and side sill appear slight;y darker than the sidem which would be consistent with FCR fascia, yellow side, and black underframe.

How to explain the apparent white lettering on the side? It is possible that glossier black paint is reflecting sunlight. This brings to mind a question; was Swift using glass beads in their lettering? The technique was relatively popular during the thirties and forties, to give a surface that would reflect auto headlights at grade crossings, sort of a precursor to Scotchlite.  The beads were typically applied to fresh stencil paste because it stayed sticky long enough to grab them and bond them to the car. Car Builder's Cycs of the era have ads for the glass beads, the trade name escapes me at the moment.

Dennis Storzek

Benjamin Hom
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
"How to explain the apparent white lettering on the side? It is possible that glossier black paint is reflecting sunlight. This brings to mind a question; was Swift using glass beads in their lettering? The technique was relatively popular during the thirties and forties, to give a surface that would reflect auto headlights at grade crossings, sort of a precursor to Scotchlite.  The beads were typically applied to fresh stencil paste because it stayed sticky long enough to grab them and bond them to the car. Car Builder's Cycs of the era have ads for the glass beads, the trade name escapes me at the moment."

"Prismo" was one of the trade names.  There are two photos in Brady McGuire's PRR Boxcar Paint and Lettering article in Vol. 21, No. 2 (Summer 1988) of The Keystone of a Class X29 boxcar in MS2 (Merchandise Service large Circle Keystone scheme without aluminum bands or Toluidine Red accents) in Prismo paint, one in regular lighting, the other in reduced lighting showing the reflective properties of the paint.


Ben Hom

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Curiouser and curiouser.  The orthocromatic film theory doesn't explain the example of the dark colored Swift car from Pittsburg with the 1952 Chevy billboard in the background that Doug Harding referred to.
 
 
Also, Dave Parker's made a point about "new" or "added" cars entering the 12xxx series for Swift under GAT by the mid 1930's.  Plus the car that we're discussing has those corner straps and a fishbelly underframe, both of which are not at all common among Swift cars.  Perhaps GAT was adding cars from other builders/leaseholders to the Swift fleet as needed.  Yet another challenge.
 
Steve



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 8:20 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 08:30 PM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
If you then look around the car corner, into the shadowed side of the car, the items that wrap around the corner, such as the facial and the corner strap are all darker in the shadow side.  So, I will assume that the whole car side is dark and the lettering is white, and not an optical illusion.
There is one argument against this theory; there IS black (or at least dark) lettering on the car side. Look just to the left of the third from the bottom grab that makes the side ladder, and you will see the top line of the dimensional data as light colored lettering. The next couple lines are missing as the lettering morphs to a graytone that matches the side, then the bottom two lines are faintly visible as dark lettering. Same with the reporting marks, the top line (or bar) and SRLX appear light, the number is missing, but then the bottom line appears dark.

I think we are being fooled by a photo taken on orthchromatic film, which typically turns yellows very dark. I am very familiar with photos of Soo Line reefers that appear to have absolutely no lettering other than the $ herald; the black lettering and yellow side are both rendered as the same graytine. Looking at the subject photo, both the side fascia and side sill appear slight;y darker than the sidem which would be consistent with FCR fascia, yellow side, and black underframe.

How to explain the apparent white lettering on the side? It is possible that glossier black paint is reflecting sunlight. This brings to mind a question; was Swift using glass beads in their lettering? The technique was relatively popular during the thirties and forties, to give a surface that would reflect auto headlights at grade crossings, sort of a precursor to Scotchlite.  The beads were typically applied to fresh stencil paste because it stayed sticky long enough to grab them and bond them to the car. Car Builder's Cycs of the era have ads for the glass beads, the trade name escapes me at the moment.

Dennis Storzek

Douglas Harding
 

I can accept the film argument for the attached photos of 10370 from the Steamtown Erie Lackawanna collection. These photos were taken in 1913, and lettering on the sides is very hard to decipher. But the white lettering on the ends is clearly visible. But I struggle with that being the explanation for the photo in question of 12624, which has very visible white lettering on the sides and ends. Nor does it explain the 1952 photo from Pittsburgh that shows what appears to be a red car with white lettering coupled to a yellow car with black lettering.

 

Attached are photos of 6714 in the 1950 red P/L and 6723 in the 1948 P/L. Both these cars appear to share the same underframe design and other features as 12624. The only other cars with this unique underframe in my collection of photos, the photos taken in the early 50s, when different film was used. We know General American was rebuilding and renumbering Swift reefers as a common practice. It appears this was done with cars from this unique class of cars, but still does not explain the P/L scheme on 12624.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 10:08 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

 

Curiouser and curiouser.  The orthocromatic film theory doesn't explain the example of the dark colored Swift car from Pittsburg with the 1952 Chevy billboard in the background that Doug Harding referred to.

 

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A86.16.109/from_search/0e627706c76dfa0bd1e3411e89500dfc-91

 

Also, Dave Parker's made a point about "new" or "added" cars entering the 12xxx series for Swift under GAT by the mid 1930's.  Plus the car that we're discussing has those corner straps and a fishbelly underframe, both of which are not at all common among Swift cars.  Perhaps GAT was adding cars from other builders/leaseholders to the Swift fleet as needed.  Yet another challenge.

 

Steve

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 8:20 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 08:30 PM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

If you then look around the car corner, into the shadowed side of the car, the items that wrap around the corner, such as the facial and the corner strap are all darker in the shadow side.  So, I will assume that the whole car side is dark and the lettering is white, and not an optical illusion.

There is one argument against this theory; there IS black (or at least dark) lettering on the car side. Look just to the left of the third from the bottom grab that makes the side ladder, and you will see the top line of the dimensional data as light colored lettering. The next couple lines are missing as the lettering morphs to a graytone that matches the side, then the bottom two lines are faintly visible as dark lettering. Same with the reporting marks, the top line (or bar) and SRLX appear light, the number is missing, but then the bottom line appears dark.

I think we are being fooled by a photo taken on orthchromatic film, which typically turns yellows very dark. I am very familiar with photos of Soo Line reefers that appear to have absolutely no lettering other than the $ herald; the black lettering and yellow side are both rendered as the same graytine. Looking at the subject photo, both the side fascia and side sill appear slight;y darker than the sidem which would be consistent with FCR fascia, yellow side, and black underframe.

How to explain the apparent white lettering on the side? It is possible that glossier black paint is reflecting sunlight. This brings to mind a question; was Swift using glass beads in their lettering? The technique was relatively popular during the thirties and forties, to give a surface that would reflect auto headlights at grade crossings, sort of a precursor to Scotchlite.  The beads were typically applied to fresh stencil paste because it stayed sticky long enough to grab them and bond them to the car. Car Builder's Cycs of the era have ads for the glass beads, the trade name escapes me at the moment.

Dennis Storzek

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 02:14 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:

But I struggle with that being the explanation for the photo in question of 12624, which has very visible white lettering on the sides and ends. Nor does it explain the 1952 photo from Pittsburgh that shows what appears to be a red car with white lettering coupled to a yellow car with black lettering.

 

I agree the dark car in the 1952 photo is likely an early version of the bright red scheme, using the old style lettering and lacking the white fascia of the later cars. What it doesn't have is any indication of black lettering on the car sides, which the 12624 has. I'm still convinced that is a yellow car and the film is fooling us. I wonder when orthchromatic film was last used? I have several examples of images of cars built in the mid twenties that exhibit the color shift unique to that film. It apparently continued in use for large format industrial photography after the introduction of panchromatic film because it was prized for its fine grain and good contrast. As to availability, it's likely still available is anyone is still supplying film for photostat copy cameras.

Dennis Storzek

Bruce Smith
 

Dennis, Folks,

I’ve definitely seen orthochromatic photos in the early WWII era. On particular example I can recall discussing here many years ago was a string of UTLX tank cars on a WWII B&O oil train that appeared to be undecorated as the yellow lettering was interpreted by the film to the be the same as the black body paint.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Oct 30, 2019, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 02:14 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:
But I struggle with that being the explanation for the photo in question of 12624, which has very visible white lettering on the sides and ends. Nor does it explain the 1952 photo from Pittsburgh that shows what appears to be a red car with white lettering coupled to a yellow car with black lettering.
 
I agree the dark car in the 1952 photo is likely an early version of the bright red scheme, using the old style lettering and lacking the white fascia of the later cars. What it doesn't have is any indication of black lettering on the car sides, which the 12624 has. I'm still convinced that is a yellow car and the film is fooling us. I wonder when orthchromatic film was last used? I have several examples of images of cars built in the mid twenties that exhibit the color shift unique to that film. It apparently continued in use for large format industrial photography after the introduction of panchromatic film because it was prized for its fine grain and good contrast. As to availability, it's likely still available is anyone is still supplying film for photostat copy cameras.

Dennis Storzek

Bill Kelly
 


This photo should help with all the speculation. It is the other side of the car apparently taken at the same time. Different lighting, different results.  The car number is 12824.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
 


Steve and Barb Hile
 

Wow, Bill, thanks for this documentation!  How did you ever locate this image?
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Kelly
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

This photo should help with all the speculation. It is the other side of the car apparently taken at the same time. Different lighting, different results.  The car number is 12824.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
 


gary laakso
 

Is that a narrow gauge, maybe 2 foot, track parallel to the car?  It sure appears to be flanges ways.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 2:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

 

Wow, Bill, thanks for this documentation!  How did you ever locate this image?

 

Steve Hile

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Kelly
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

This photo should help with all the speculation. It is the other side of the car apparently taken at the same time. Different lighting, different results.  The car number is 12824.

Later,

Bill Kelly

 

 




Brent Greer
 

Just playing the uninformed Devil's advocate, is it at all possible that there was some kind of test involved here that had the opposite sides of this car painted in different schemes?  (Just questioning the white lettering on the end of the car and the reason it might have gotten the 360 view photo documentation)

Brent


Dr. J. Brent Greer


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 5:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme
 
Wow, Bill, thanks for this documentation!  How did you ever locate this image?
 
Steve Hile


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Kelly
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

This photo should help with all the speculation. It is the other side of the car apparently taken at the same time. Different lighting, different results.  The car number is 12824.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
 


Bruce Smith
 

Gary,

It was not uncommon for RIP tracks to have these narrow gauge tracks for hand carts to haul materials.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Oct 31, 2019, at 4:45 PM, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Is that a narrow gauge, maybe 2 foot, track parallel to the car?  It sure appears to be flanges ways.
 
Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 2:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme
 
Wow, Bill, thanks for this documentation!  How did you ever locate this image?
 
Steve Hile
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Kelly
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

This photo should help with all the speculation. It is the other side of the car apparently taken at the same time. Different lighting, different results.  The car number is 12824.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
<image001.jpg>
 




Richard Townsend
 

Some car shops had narrow gauge tracks for carts used to bring materials to the cars.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Oct 31, 2019 2:45 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

Is that a narrow gauge, maybe 2 foot, track parallel to the car?  It sure appears to be flanges ways.
 
Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 2:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme
 
Wow, Bill, thanks for this documentation!  How did you ever locate this image?
 
Steve Hile
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Kelly
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme
This photo should help with all the speculation. It is the other side of the car apparently taken at the same time. Different lighting, different results.  The car number is 12824.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
 



Bill Kelly
 

This negative was for sale on ebay. No, I didn't buy it.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:35:52 -0500 "Steve and Barb Hile" <shile@...> writes:

Wow, Bill, thanks for this documentation!  How did you ever locate this image?
 
Steve Hile


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Kelly
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

This photo should help with all the speculation. It is the other side of the car apparently taken at the same time. Different lighting, different results.  The car number is 12824.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
 


 


Patrick Wade
 

Sorry I will not make it to the swap meet. We have been prepping for a huge family weeding all week. Tomorrow is the day.

Pat


On Nov 1, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Bill Kelly <wbkelly@...> wrote:


This negative was for sale on ebay. No, I didn't buy it.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:35:52 -0500 "Steve and Barb Hile" <shile@...> writes:
Wow, Bill, thanks for this documentation!  How did you ever locate this image?
 
Steve Hile


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Kelly
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift paint scheme

This photo should help with all the speculation. It is the other side of the car apparently taken at the same time. Different lighting, different results.  The car number is 12824.
Later,
Bill Kelly
 
<ATT01187.jpg>
 


 


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Friends,

For what is worth to this discussion, Kodak Verichrome Safety Film, an orthochromatic film was available from 1931-1956. Kodak's panchromatic Panatomic X was introduced in 1933, and their panchromatic Super-XX was introduced in 1940 (later morphed into Tri-X). Given their dominance in the U.S. market, most of the films used in the steam era were likely to be Kodak, especially among amateur photographers.

There point of the above paragraph is that there was considerable overlap between orthochromatic and panchromatic films, so one cannot date a photo simply on whether it was shot with ortho or pan films during our period of interest.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff


On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 5:48 PM Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 02:14 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:

But I struggle with that being the explanation for the photo in question of 12624, which has very visible white lettering on the sides and ends. Nor does it explain the 1952 photo from Pittsburgh that shows what appears to be a red car with white lettering coupled to a yellow car with black lettering.

 

I agree the dark car in the 1952 photo is likely an early version of the bright red scheme, using the old style lettering and lacking the white fascia of the later cars. What it doesn't have is any indication of black lettering on the car sides, which the 12624 has. I'm still convinced that is a yellow car and the film is fooling us. I wonder when orthchromatic film was last used? I have several examples of images of cars built in the mid twenties that exhibit the color shift unique to that film. It apparently continued in use for large format industrial photography after the introduction of panchromatic film because it was prized for its fine grain and good contrast. As to availability, it's likely still available is anyone is still supplying film for photostat copy cameras.

Dennis Storzek