Topics

U.P. S-40-6 Double Deck Live Stock Car


Bryian Sones
 

So I finally got around to building some S-40-6 1955 Live Stock Car from UHPS. While building the cars I discovered that an adult Scale cow would not be able to stand in the lower deck of the car. There is plenty of clearance in the top deck. When the prototype cars were rebuilt with double decks is it possible that the upper deck was perhaps used for larger live stock and the lower used for smaller? If this is not the case perhaps the model has the deck located too low? Did anyone come across this issue when building these cars. I didn't come across this issue with the Westerfield version of the car however, that models doesn't have simulated wood where the upper deck should be so I went off of photos to located it. I also only loaded those cars with smaller live stock which leads to my final question..... Were these cars ever loaded with larger live stock such as cattle after they were rebuilt and fitted with double decks?      .

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


al_brown03
 

My understanding is that double-deck stock cars were normally used for smaller animals like hogs or sheep: same kind of critter on each deck. Cattle would travel in single-deck cars. A very interesting book on live stock traffic is Sandifer, "Santa Fe Live Stock Operations". While the discussion is of the Santa Fe, much of what's said is generally applicable.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


radiodial868
 

What Al said. Hogs and sheep. From what I've been able to determine, the double-decks were relatively late to the game, usually modified conventional stockcars. The concept of long distance hauling of hogs to big processing plants came about as a result of smaller and local plants consolidating and the rise of centralized large processors. That is why the WP converted 100 1920's era S-40-8's to double-deck in 1938 and kept them running until the 1960's.
In the Rockies, southwest and intermountain regions, hauling sheep from spring to summer pasture and then back again in the fall was big business until the interstates and trucks took over. There's you a use for the UP cars!
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Douglas Harding
 

Brian the UP had some double deck stock cars designed to hold cattle on the lower level. According to the Stock Car Data posted by Dick Harley, these cars were classified as SA. Most built new in 1950-1952, the rest rebuilt from S-40-10 stockcars in 1947-48. All were 40’ cars.

https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/UP-FRT-DATA/UP-Stock-Car-Data/i-bg5rQjM/A

 

Your model is a S-40-6, which was a 36’ car first built in 1918 as a single deck car, that was rebuilt by the railroad into a double deck cars, starting in 1941. Some were equipped with convertible upper decks. Mostly likely the rebuild was done for sheep traffic.

 

To my knowledge no one built a double deck stock car that could handle cattle on the upper deck. Some double deck cars were convertible, that is the upper deck could be raised up out of the way into the roof cavity to accommodate tall livestock, ie cattle and horses.

 

You state you can get a cow model on the upper deck of your model, while there may have been clearance on the upper deck due to the peaked roof structure, could the cattle fit through the door?

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 2:47 AM
To: RealSTMFC <realstmfc@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] U.P. S-40-6 Double Deck Live Stock Car

 

So I finally got around to building some S-40-6 1955 Live Stock Car from UHPS. While building the cars I discovered that an adult Scale cow would not be able to stand in the lower deck of the car. There is plenty of clearance in the top deck. When the prototype cars were rebuilt with double decks is it possible that the upper deck was perhaps used for larger live stock and the lower used for smaller? If this is not the case perhaps the model has the deck located too low? Did anyone come across this issue when building these cars. I didn't come across this issue with the Westerfield version of the car however, that models doesn't have simulated wood where the upper deck should be so I went off of photos to located it. I also only loaded those cars with smaller live stock which leads to my final question..... Were these cars ever loaded with larger live stock such as cattle after they were rebuilt and fitted with double decks?      .

 

Thanks,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA


Bryian Sones
 

Thanks for the info guys and I'll have to see if I can locate a copy of that Santa Fe book. 

Douglas, the scale cow will fit through the upper deck door but not through the lower portion but I felt it would seem odd to have all that weight above. As you mentioned in reference to  Dick Harley's Stock Car primer.... S-40-6 Cars were "SA" type, therefor these cars where convertible.

If the lower deck was used to load Cattle then the upper deck was pushed up and un-used? If the U.P. still moved cattle in these cars after the rebuild I could use the Westerfield car to represent this. The deck location isn't designated on the model.

Has anyone ever seen or have any picks of cattle being moved in these cars in the 1950's?   

  Thank You,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Monday, January 25, 2021, 10:11:24 AM PST, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:


Brian the UP had some double deck stock cars designed to hold cattle on the lower level. According to the Stock Car Data posted by Dick Harley, these cars were classified as SA. Most built new in 1950-1952, the rest rebuilt from S-40-10 stockcars in 1947-48. All were 40’ cars.

https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/UP-FRT-DATA/UP-Stock-Car-Data/i-bg5rQjM/A

 

Your model is a S-40-6, which was a 36’ car first built in 1918 as a single deck car, that was rebuilt by the railroad into a double deck cars, starting in 1941. Some were equipped with convertible upper decks. Mostly likely the rebuild was done for sheep traffic.

 

To my knowledge no one built a double deck stock car that could handle cattle on the upper deck. Some double deck cars were convertible, that is the upper deck could be raised up out of the way into the roof cavity to accommodate tall livestock, ie cattle and horses.

 

You state you can get a cow model on the upper deck of your model, while there may have been clearance on the upper deck due to the peaked roof structure, could the cattle fit through the door?

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 2:47 AM
To: RealSTMFC <realstmfc@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] U.P. S-40-6 Double Deck Live Stock Car

 

So I finally got around to building some S-40-6 1955 Live Stock Car from UHPS. While building the cars I discovered that an adult Scale cow would not be able to stand in the lower deck of the car. There is plenty of clearance in the top deck. When the prototype cars were rebuilt with double decks is it possible that the upper deck was perhaps used for larger live stock and the lower used for smaller? If this is not the case perhaps the model has the deck located too low? Did anyone come across this issue when building these cars. I didn't come across this issue with the Westerfield version of the car however, that models doesn't have simulated wood where the upper deck should be so I went off of photos to located it. I also only loaded those cars with smaller live stock which leads to my final question..... Were these cars ever loaded with larger live stock such as cattle after they were rebuilt and fitted with double decks?      .

 

Thanks,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA


Todd Sullivan
 

I am hardly an expert in loading cattle into stock cars, but (common sensically) it does occur to me that loading full size livestock on an upper deck would raise the center of gravity for the car and load.  Seems to me that would not be a good idea.

I recall a tale about cattle and stock cars in a marvelous book about the Colorado narrow gauge ("Little Engines and Big Men") that said loaded stock cars were derailing because the cattle inside were moving to one side or one end of the car, causing the cars to become unbalanced.  The Superintendent put a stop to the problem by issuing a General Order that said, "Henceforth, all livestock will be loaded 50% heads and 50% tails in all stock cars."  Right!

Todd Sullivan


Douglas Harding
 

Brian the Santa Fe book is new and available from several sources. Here is one https://www.mcmillanpublications.com/products/santa-fe-live-stock-operations-history-equipment-facilities-and-modeling-sandifer

 

One of the best sources for information on UP stockcars is Dick Harley’s SmugMug page https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/

 

Regarding the S-40-6 stockcars. The one’s in Dick’s list are shown as SC cars not SA cars.

SA means the position of the upper deck was high enough to allow loading of cattle on the lower deck. Attached is a photo of a UP SA car. You can clearly see this is a tall car and the upper deck is not in the center of the car side.

SC means the stockcar had convertible decks. A convertible deck means the upper deck could be raised via chains and cables, to provide clearance for large animals or other loads. These chains were connected to a rod on one side of the car that could be turned, winding up the chain and raising the upper deck as a single unit. When in the lowered position it rested on wood blocks along the car side, allowing small animals to be loaded on both decks, almost doubling the capacity of the car. When in the raised position the upper deck was not used.

 

A good source for information stockcar models is https://sfrhms.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/stock_car_models.pdf

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 1:36 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] U.P. S-40-6 Double Deck Live Stock Car

 

Thanks for the info guys and I'll have to see if I can locate a copy of that Santa Fe book. 

 

Douglas, the scale cow will fit through the upper deck door but not through the lower portion but I felt it would seem odd to have all that weight above. As you mentioned in reference to  Dick Harley's Stock Car primer.... S-40-6 Cars were "SA" type, therefor these cars where convertible.

 

If the lower deck was used to load Cattle then the upper deck was pushed up and un-used? If the U.P. still moved cattle in these cars after the rebuild I could use the Westerfield car to represent this. The deck location isn't designated on the model.

 

Has anyone ever seen or have any picks of cattle being moved in these cars in the 1950's?   

 

  Thank You,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA

 

 

On Monday, January 25, 2021, 10:11:24 AM PST, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:

 

 

Brian the UP had some double deck stock cars designed to hold cattle on the lower level. According to the Stock Car Data posted by Dick Harley, these cars were classified as SA. Most built new in 1950-1952, the rest rebuilt from S-40-10 stockcars in 1947-48. All were 40’ cars.

https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/UP-FRT-DATA/UP-Stock-Car-Data/i-bg5rQjM/A

 

Your model is a S-40-6, which was a 36’ car first built in 1918 as a single deck car, that was rebuilt by the railroad into a double deck cars, starting in 1941. Some were equipped with convertible upper decks. Mostly likely the rebuild was done for sheep traffic.

 

To my knowledge no one built a double deck stock car that could handle cattle on the upper deck. Some double deck cars were convertible, that is the upper deck could be raised up out of the way into the roof cavity to accommodate tall livestock, ie cattle and horses.

 

You state you can get a cow model on the upper deck of your model, while there may have been clearance on the upper deck due to the peaked roof structure, could the cattle fit through the door?

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 2:47 AM
To: RealSTMFC <realstmfc@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] U.P. S-40-6 Double Deck Live Stock Car

 

So I finally got around to building some S-40-6 1955 Live Stock Car from UHPS. While building the cars I discovered that an adult Scale cow would not be able to stand in the lower deck of the car. There is plenty of clearance in the top deck. When the prototype cars were rebuilt with double decks is it possible that the upper deck was perhaps used for larger live stock and the lower used for smaller? If this is not the case perhaps the model has the deck located too low? Did anyone come across this issue when building these cars. I didn't come across this issue with the Westerfield version of the car however, that models doesn't have simulated wood where the upper deck should be so I went off of photos to located it. I also only loaded those cars with smaller live stock which leads to my final question..... Were these cars ever loaded with larger live stock such as cattle after they were rebuilt and fitted with double decks?      .

 

Thanks,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA


Tom Madden
 

Steve Sandifer's excellent Santa Fe stock car book has a two-page spread devoted just to the convertible mechanism (pp 128, 129). The old AHM "cattle car" is actually a decent model of a NYC convertible stock car, except it has the deck lifting mechanism on both sides while the prototype had it only on the left. According to my notes the June 1990 MAINLINE MODELER has a prototype photo and equipment diagram of the car, while the December 1991 MLM has a construction article based (IIRC) on the AHM model. 

Tom Madden


Bryian Sones
 

Douglas, sorry about that I meant to say the S-40-6 were SC not SA I miss-typed. I built a bunch of the trixx .U.P. s-40-12 cars which were "SA" so I had my mind slightly on that and miss-typed. Anyway you answered my question perfectly. Very much appreciated! 

So the Westerfield version of the s-40-6 car will work perfect for a representation of cattle loaded. I can just model the upper decks in their non -op position. I'll use the UPHS cars for Double Deck service for the smaller livestock top and bottom.

Thank you everyone very much for the help and info.    

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Monday, January 25, 2021, 12:57:33 PM PST, Tom Madden via groups.io <pullmanboss@...> wrote:


Steve Sandifer's excellent Santa Fe stock car book has a two-page spread devoted just to the convertible mechanism (pp 128, 129). The old AHM "cattle car" is actually a decent model of a NYC convertible stock car, except it has the deck lifting mechanism on both sides while the prototype had it only on the left. According to my notes the June 1990 MAINLINE MODELER has a prototype photo and equipment diagram of the car, while the December 1991 MLM has a construction article based (IIRC) on the AHM model. 

Tom Madden


Douglas Harding
 

In the group photos find https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/photo/43892/0?p=Name,,livestock,20,1,0,0

This is a standard livestock loading chart based upon animal size and how many can fit into a 36’ or 40’ car. The preference was to load animals in snug to eliminate movement. Movement often lead to injuries. At the same time cars were not to be overloaded. The ATSF provided agents a form 1558 to report overloading in stockcars if the shipper insisted. If a car was loaded less than full a partition was to be erected to confine the animals to one end of the car. Partitions were also used to separate large animals from smaller animals, ie separate cattle from calves, when loaded in the same car. Bulls were to be tied, to prevent movement and I suspect to keep them from attempts to mount cows.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Todd Sullivan via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 2:22 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] U.P. S-40-6 Double Deck Live Stock Car

 

I am hardly an expert in loading cattle into stock cars, but (common sensically) it does occur to me that loading full size livestock on an upper deck would raise the center of gravity for the car and load.  Seems to me that would not be a good idea.

I recall a tale about cattle and stock cars in a marvelous book about the Colorado narrow gauge ("Little Engines and Big Men") that said loaded stock cars were derailing because the cattle inside were moving to one side or one end of the car, causing the cars to become unbalanced.  The Superintendent put a stop to the problem by issuing a General Order that said, "Henceforth, all livestock will be loaded 50% heads and 50% tails in all stock cars."  Right!

Todd Sullivan