URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings


Scott
 

Group,

Does anybody if there are General Arrangement drawings available for the Milwaukee Road 50ft Reefer in the photo?  According to Steam era freight car manual it was built by General American in 1938 because of the single locking bar on the door.  There is also a nice side view of this car in the book. Does anybody know if there is a survivor car hidden away in a museum somewhere?  I am particularly interested in roof details.   It appears to only have one ice hatch on each end which seems odd.  Photo is a duplicate slide, unknown photographer, my collection.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald


al_brown03
 

There's an article on these cars in RP CYC 16, pp 53-63.

Hth,

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Ed Hawkins
 



On Jul 25, 2021, at 11:18 PM, Scott <repairman87@...> wrote:

Does anybody if there are General Arrangement drawings available for the Milwaukee Road 50ft Reefer in the photo?  According to Steam era freight car manual it was built by General American in 1938 because of the single locking bar on the door.  There is also a nice side view of this car in the book. Does anybody know if there is a survivor car hidden away in a museum somewhere?  I am particularly interested in roof details.   It appears to only have one ice hatch on each end which seems odd.  Photo is a duplicate slide, unknown photographer, my collection.

Scott,
Check with the Milwaukee Public Library, who received a substantial collection of builder photos & technical data from the railroad. 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


vapeurchapelon
 

Al,
 
many thanks for that hint. Does the article contain some information regarding brake equipment/ arrangement? The OMI brass model unfortunately is just plain wrong. I redetailed it at least to a point it would be functionable - but I am still not convinced of its accuracy.
 
Scott - many thanks for the good photo.
 
Many greetings
 
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1954
 
Gesendet: Montag, 26. Juli 2021 um 06:49 Uhr
Von: "al_brown03" <abrown@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings
There's an article on these cars in RP CYC 16, pp 53-63.

Hth,

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


al_brown03
 

The article says, about brake equipment: "The cars ... were equipped with Westinghouse AB-schedule 4-12 air brakes, as well as steam and air-signal pipes" [ p 54]

"[U]nlike the cars that were built in following years, [URTX 89000-89024] had independent dual AB-schedule air brake systems acting on individual trucks" [p 55]

And that's it.

Al B.


Guy Wilber
 

Scott wrote:

“I am particularly interested in roof details. It appears to only have one ice hatch on each end which seems odd.”

The ice hatch cover (right) is either in the open position or missing entirely. You can see the latch mount and the straight line of the bunker flange as well…the car definitely has four hatches.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Tim O'Connor
 


Another reference article is Model Railroading, May 1991, pp.22-26

Tim O'Connor

On 7/26/2021 12:18 AM, Scott wrote:
Group,

Does anybody if there are General Arrangement drawings available for the Milwaukee Road 50ft Reefer in the photo?  According to Steam era freight car manual it was built by General American in 1938 because of the single locking bar on the door.  There is also a nice side view of this car in the book. Does anybody know if there is a survivor car hidden away in a museum somewhere?  I am particularly interested in roof details.   It appears to only have one ice hatch on each end which seems odd.  Photo is a duplicate slide, unknown photographer, my collection.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Scott
 

Thanks for the replies.  I got the RP Cyc and Model Railroader ordered and on the way.  Thank you for the clear photo Tim.  Do you have any of this car painted for the other lessors that used it by chance?

Thanks again
Scott McDonald 


Tim O'Connor
 


uh... not  Model Railroader
.........  Model Railroading !!


On 7/28/2021 7:18 PM, Scott wrote:
Thanks for the replies.  I got the RP Cyc and Model Railroader ordered and on the way.  Thank you for the clear photo Tim.  Do you have any of this car painted for the other lessors that used it by chance?

Thanks again
Scott McDonald 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Scott
 

Oh oh😅   Back to Ebay!

Scott McDonald 


Dave Nelson
 

Ed, do you know if anyone has a comprehensive list of what drawings they hold?  I have the folio drawings, an outstanding book on their passenger cars (the cover says it’s from the Milwaukee Shops) but normally come up short for more detailed drawings on their cars.

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ed Hawkins

 

Scott,

Check with the Milwaukee Public Library, who received a substantial collection of builder photos & technical data from the railroad. 

Regards,

Ed Hawkins


Ed Hawkins
 



On Jul 29, 2021, at 1:38 PM, Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

Ed, do you know if anyone has a comprehensive list of what drawings they hold?  I have the folio drawings, an outstanding book on their passenger cars (the cover says it’s from the Milwaukee Shops) but normally come up short for more detailed drawings on their cars.

Dave,
I don’t know of anyone having a comprehensive list of Milwaukee Road drawings. It would seem logical to me that for these 52’ reefers, that the CMStP&P would have had significant input with the design. That said, given the URTX reporting marks it was General American Transportation Corp. that built the cars and maintained them. 

Following is a Milwaukee Public Library link to available information from the Milwaukee Road Mechanical Department.


There are 17 pages to peruse, and it does mention drawings. Page 2 specifies 12 boxes for “freight cars” with drawings included in a list of various items that also includes photos. But drawings may be limited to MILW reporting marks and not URTX. 

I suggest making a phone call that should provide insight what they have regarding drawings & if there are drawings specifically for URTX reefers with Milwaukee Road as the lessee. 


My bet is that drawings were probably controlled by the black hole GATC. From my many prior searches I remain convinced that GATC technical data such as engineering drawings, bill of materials, etc., does exist somewhere with the most likely location being Chicago. However, gaining access to the GATC technical data has been a study of frustration & dead ends with people not wanting to spend time to be of help. 

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 04:58 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:
I don’t know of anyone having a comprehensive list of Milwaukee Road drawings. It would seem logical to me that for these 52’ reefers, that the CMStP&P would have had significant input with the design. That said, given the URTX reporting marks it was General American Transportation Corp. that built the cars and maintained them. 
I've always been intrigued by these cars, it appears that General American re-purposed the same carbody they designed for the Pfaudler Corp. milk tank cars, at least one of which still exists. https://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=General+American+Pfaudler+Corp.=1021
There have been models of the milk tank cars offered in brass, I believe.

Of course that won't help with the hatch details. One thing I find odd on the MILW cars is the lack of marker lamp brackets. All passenger cars had them, as any car could conceivably be the last car in the train. You can see the cast brackets riveted to the corners of the car at IRM. These are items that weren't typically removed when the cars were converted to freight or work service as they weren't in the way of anything. Yet I can see no evidence that the MILW car ever had them.

Dennis Storzek


Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis

I have only seen photos of these reefers in freight trains. My notes indicate they were heavily insulated,
perhaps for frozen food products? I agree they are very similar to the Pfaudler cars. Overland imported
a couple of the Pfaudler cars as well as the Milwaukee cars.

Tim O'Connor



On 7/29/2021 10:28 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 04:58 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:
I don’t know of anyone having a comprehensive list of Milwaukee Road drawings. It would seem logical to me that for these 52’ reefers, that the CMStP&P would have had significant input with the design. That said, given the URTX reporting marks it was General American Transportation Corp. that built the cars and maintained them. 
I've always been intrigued by these cars, it appears that General American re-purposed the same carbody they designed for the Pfaudler Corp. milk tank cars, at least one of which still exists. https://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=General+American+Pfaudler+Corp.=1021
There have been models of the milk tank cars offered in brass, I believe.

Of course that won't help with the hatch details. One thing I find odd on the MILW cars is the lack of marker lamp brackets. All passenger cars had them, as any car could conceivably be the last car in the train. You can see the cast brackets riveted to the corners of the car at IRM. These are items that weren't typically removed when the cars were converted to freight or work service as they weren't in the way of anything. Yet I can see no evidence that the MILW car ever had them.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


ROGER HINMAN
 

General Arrangement drawings and other detail drawings of the original 1934 URTX frozen food 
car are available in the Jan Kirsten paper collection and SMU


Roger Hinman

On Jul 30, 2021, at 9:14 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Dennis

I have only seen photos of these reefers in freight trains. My notes indicate they were heavily insulated,
perhaps for frozen food products? I agree they are very similar to the Pfaudler cars. Overland imported
a couple of the Pfaudler cars as well as the Milwaukee cars.

Tim O'Connor



On 7/29/2021 10:28 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 04:58 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:
I don’t know of anyone having a comprehensive list of Milwaukee Road drawings. It would seem logical to me that for these 52’ reefers, that the CMStP&P would have had significant input with the design. That said, given the URTX reporting marks it was General American Transportation Corp. that built the cars and maintained them. 
I've always been intrigued by these cars, it appears that General American re-purposed the same carbody they designed for the Pfaudler Corp. milk tank cars, at least one of which still exists. https://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=General+American+Pfaudler+Corp.=1021
There have been models of the milk tank cars offered in brass, I believe.

Of course that won't help with the hatch details. One thing I find odd on the MILW cars is the lack of marker lamp brackets. All passenger cars had them, as any car could conceivably be the last car in the train. You can see the cast brackets riveted to the corners of the car at IRM. These are items that weren't typically removed when the cars were converted to freight or work service as they weren't in the way of anything. Yet I can see no evidence that the MILW car ever had them.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 06:14 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
I have only seen photos of these reefers in freight trains. My notes indicate they were heavily insulated,
perhaps for frozen food products? I agree they are very similar to the Pfaudler cars.
Yeah, I was thinking that they didn't look like they ever had steam lines, nor buffers, but that separate plate across the bottom of the end could have been a patch, so lack of buffers was inconclusive.

Now that I think of it, I wonder how much insulation the Pfaudler milk cars had. General American may have found it easier to adapt this body style to extra insulation as opposed to the standard reefer construction.

Dennis Storzek


Richard Townsend
 

There was a series of Swift reefers that als was similar to the MILW cars and the Pfaudler cars 


On Jul 30, 2021, at 6:51 PM, Dennis Storzek <dennis@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 06:14 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
I have only seen photos of these reefers in freight trains. My notes indicate they were heavily insulated,
perhaps for frozen food products? I agree they are very similar to the Pfaudler cars.
Yeah, I was thinking that they didn't look like they ever had steam lines, nor buffers, but that separate plate across the bottom of the end could have been a patch, so lack of buffers was inconclusive.

Now that I think of it, I wonder how much insulation the Pfaudler milk cars had. General American may have found it easier to adapt this body style to extra insulation as opposed to the standard reefer construction.

Dennis Storzek


ROGER HINMAN
 

I believe the Pfaulder milk tank cars had cork as insulation wrapped around the enameled tanks, I was inside the car at the MOT St Louis and can’t remember if there was insulation on the walls also; ; the URTX car had insulation on the walls like a std refrigerator except more of it.

Roger Hinman

On Jul 30, 2021, at 9:51 PM, Dennis Storzek <dennis@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 06:14 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
I have only seen photos of these reefers in freight trains. My notes indicate they were heavily insulated,
perhaps for frozen food products? I agree they are very similar to the Pfaudler cars.
Yeah, I was thinking that they didn't look like they ever had steam lines, nor buffers, but that separate plate across the bottom of the end could have been a patch, so lack of buffers was inconclusive.

Now that I think of it, I wonder how much insulation the Pfaudler milk cars had. General American may have found it easier to adapt this body style to extra insulation as opposed to the standard reefer construction.

Dennis Storzek


Jack Mullen
 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 07:28 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
I've always been intrigued by these cars, it appears that General American re-purposed the same carbody they designed for the Pfaudler Corp. milk tank cars, at least one of which still exists. 
Dennis, I agree that there seems to be a shared design here, but perhaps the lineage runs the other way. If my memory serves, all of the steel 50' Pfaudler cars were built postwar. The reefer in question and the similar (phase 2?) near copies built a couple years later were prewar, 1930-40 I think.

Jack Mullen


Richard Townsend
 

The Swift cars were built in 1934.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jul 31, 2021 3:53 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 07:28 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
I've always been intrigued by these cars, it appears that General American re-purposed the same carbody they designed for the Pfaudler Corp. milk tank cars, at least one of which still exists. 
Dennis, I agree that there seems to be a shared design here, but perhaps the lineage runs the other way. If my memory serves, all of the steel 50' Pfaudler cars were built postwar. The reefer in question and the similar (phase 2?) near copies built a couple years later were prewar, 1930-40 I think.

Jack Mullen