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UTLX tank cars
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n40015@...
Larry,
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I believe that this is what is coming from Sunshine Models, although it will be a complete kit that includes an Intermountain tank. Apparently the holdup is getting someone to etch the brass details that are to be included in the kit: platforms, ladders, etc. I'm as eager as anyone to get these kits on the market. Sunshine's earlier ACF 8,000-gal insulated tank car makes an absolutely stunning model. They're a challenge to build, but the builder's efforts are well rewarded. The new X-3 tank car was designed to greatly lessen that "challenge" and still yield an outstanding and versatile model. Charlie
In a message dated 3/9/1 9:00:08 AM, ab8180@wayne.edu writes:
<< 3-5-01 This is a revision of a note I sent to John Nerich's NYB&W website. The discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars prompts me to repeat it: Why couldn't one of the detail parts makers (ie, Detail Associates, Tichy,New England Rail Service,etc)make a separate UTLX X-3 style underframe in styrene that could be fitted to the several available tanks from Tichy, Intermountain(especially Intermountain),and Red Caboose,perhaps with a center sill that would be cut to length to suit the particular tank.This could result in accurate UTLX models without the investment in die work needed for the whole car, especially the tank. AB or K brake options could be provided too.The data needed is available in the Car Builder's Cyc and on museum cars. I would think the "prototype conscious" crowd would provide a customer base for such a part, even if not for complete UTLX kits. Remember that UTLX was like PFE- the cars all looked much alike but were around in huge numbers and went everywhere. Everybody needs a few! LR King >>
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Larry King <ab8180@...>
3-5-01
This is a revision of a note I sent to John Nerich's NYB&W website. The discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars prompts me to repeat it: Why couldn't one of the detail parts makers (ie, Detail Associates, Tichy,New England Rail Service,etc)make a separate UTLX X-3 style underframe in styrene that could be fitted to the several available tanks from Tichy, Intermountain(especially Intermountain),and Red Caboose,perhaps with a center sill that would be cut to length to suit the particular tank.This could result in accurate UTLX models without the investment in die work needed for the whole car, especially the tank. AB or K brake options could be provided too.The data needed is available in the Car Builder's Cyc and on museum cars. I would think the "prototype conscious" crowd would provide a customer base for such a part, even if not for complete UTLX kits. Remember that UTLX was like PFE- the cars all looked much alike but were around in huge numbers and went everywhere. Everybody needs a few! LR King
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dixierails <dixierails@...>
Larry,
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Sometime ago I measured three UTLX tankcars built prior to WWII. One was a 100,000lb (10,036 gal) capacity insulated car built 8-14-1920. The second insulated car was 10,032 gal and built 6-23.The uninsulated one was a 80,000lb capacity built 10-37. All three had different end walks. Will someone pick and manufacture the most comman centerframe, say the X-3 6,000 gal car, the 8,000 gal car or the 10000 gal car? Or is there a chance the centerframe will be similar to the Tichy tankcar frame and allow for some modification? Has Tichy or Grandt Line or Detail West shown any interest in creating such a centerframe? I'd be interested in buy a coulpe dozen. I'd be just as interested in buying a couple dozen of the 5 vertical band tank cars. Just thoughts, any comments? Larry Sexton
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From: "Larry King" <ab8180@wayne.edu> To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: [STMFC] UTLX tank cars The discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars prompts LR King
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byronrose@...
Dear Larry,
Your idea is great. You could probably guarantee a manufacturer that each of the 200 or so people on this list would buy ten underframes. But how could they cover the other 48,000 or so they need to sell to make any money on it. I hate to say it, but this is a subject best left to resin castings. That's the only venue available to us for the real life quantities that this type of model represents. Sorry. Did'ja notice that LifeLike sold out all the built up tank car models they brought in, while Martin Loftin is still begging people to buy his kit? I guess that's not a fair comparison to make. How about this. I built one P2K kit and than went and bought a dozen built ups. How many others did the same? And contrary to your casual remark about using existing tank castings, 'tain't so. It seems every tank car manufacturer used different combinations of diameter and length to get to those 6, 8, and 10,000 gallon sizes. Using info from 50 years worth of Cycs, I've found only a handful that could be adapted from the 4 existing riveted tanks, and then only by diameter, their lengths would have to be changed. That doesn't even begin to cover the 4, 6, and 12,000 gallon sizes. I've also thought about making a pattern for some of those sizes to be cast in resin. Making a proper coned rivet is the easy part, punching them into brass only slightly less easy, rolling said shell and keeping a curve behind each rivet completely escapes me. You see, each little round pyramid reinforces the metal around it's base so that when the shell is rolled, it will appear as though it a series of flat surfaces joined by bent planes, rather than curved. Remember, those rivets on the prototype were hammered in after the shell was curved. So far, we don't have that luxury. The cast tanks available had the rivets cut into the molds after the roll of the tank was cut. OTOH, there's the possibility of using the same old NWSL rivets punched into styrene sheet as usual, but then we'd have a tank that looked just like all those imported brass models with those cute little dimples, rather than the big, hefty RIVETS they need. How could we tell them apart? I'm still trying to get my act into order to make available copies of my patterns for the corrected ACF tank car underframe which sits 65% completed in a box on my work(?)bench. A URTX underframe was supposed to be next. I hope that when Martin Loftin does his it's more accurate than his ACF underframe. Byron Rose On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:07:48 -0500 Larry King <ab8180@wayne.edu> writes: 3-5-01________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Larry King <ab8180@...>
At 04:59 PM 3/11/2001 -0500, you wrote:
Dear Larry,bet even for twice that you'd have a market. Look at all the diesel detail parts that are available. Are there REALLY that many people who are serious diesel detailers? I hate to say it, but this is a subject best left to resin castings.apiece, and that mounts up too... Did'ja notice that LifeLike sold out all the built up tank car modelsmodeling for me. And contrary to your casual remark about using existing tank castings,I disagree. The IM tanks are close enough that Sunshine is using them as the basis of their kit, and I never said this would work for EVERY UTLX car.So you have to kitbash a little... I've also thought about making a pattern for some of those sizes to becast in resin. Making a proper coned rivet is the easy part, punching
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byronrose@...
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:05:49 -0500 Larry King <ab8180@wayne.edu> writes:
At 04:59 PM 3/11/2001 -0500, you wrote:Larry,Dear Larry,that You missed my point, but I'll try to make them again. 1 Tichey has had his tank car on the market for 15-20 years and never did sell very many of them because of an unfortunate choice of unprototypical accuracy. He also does his own tooling on the cheap and I'll bet you he still hasn't recouped his out-of-pocket on that kit. He sells the underframes relatively cheap to get something out of it, but since he doesn't have much in to begin with, they're cheap. Probably cheaper than the Chinese would charge. 2 LifeLike and InterMountain have pretty much sated the market for a good looking, buildable (or built up) tank car for those hundreds of thousands of modelers who just want a tank car that doesn't look like the Walthers/TMI/Mantua pieces of dreck that had overrun the market previously. 3 DA and DW don't do their own tooling. They are at the mercy of people who charge them great sums of money for products that they (DA/DW) are familiar with and feel they can make a buck off of. Why should they get into making tank car parts with absolutely no knowledge to base their decisions on? 4 Would you want unknowledgable manufacturers making those parts and/or decisions? Have you seen the early version of the IM PFE R40-10? Have you tried to guess why they brought out a super version of it for 7 bucks more? For us to pay for their lack of smarts the first time they tried to do it. 4 If someone wanted to lose money making HO models, they'd be better served making something that builds out of the box, uses a maximum of 3 materials to produce, comes painted, and needs no other parts purchased to finish it. Like a Beano wagon top box car. BSR ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Richard Hendrickson
1 Tichey has had his tank car on the market for 15-20 years and neverByron is essentially right about this (aas about the other practical issues involved in producing and marketing tank car parts), but, just for the record, let's correct his oversimplification of history here. The now-Tichy tank car was originally tooled by Bill Gould, whose knowledge of prototype history was as defective as his die-making skills were superb. (And, just to make sure blame goes where it should, even at this late date, Gould was egged on by Bob Hundman who then, when the nonexistence of the prototype was pointed out, tried to rewrite history rather than admit he was wrong). Gould made some other unfortunate choices of prototypes to model, sales of his kits fell far short of his expectations, and he eventually sold all the tooling for the Gould kits to Tichy, who has produced them ever since. No way to know what Tichy paid for Gould's tooling, but it's a pretty safe bet that he paid a lot less than it cost to produce, and probably a whole lot less than it would take to duplicate it today. Those of us who are into building kits (especially resin kits), kitbashing, etc. are prone to forget how few of us there are, and what a miniscule market we constitute for manufacturers. I have it on good authority that the Life-Like and Intermountain built-ups go out the front door as fast as they come in the back door while the kits languish on dealers' shelves. As for kits like the Gould/Tichy cars, with all those little pieces that have to be assembled and then - saints preserve us! - painted and lettered, I happened to be in a large hobby shop in Southern Calif. when the Gould tank car first came out. A modeler whose name is still regarded with great reverence by the NMRA crowd came into the store to see what was new and the owner handed him a Gould tank car kit. He opened the box, looked at all those itty bitty styrene parts, blanched visibly, and blurted out, "Oh, I could never build anything like that!" That was a long time ago, but, if anything, there are more "model railroaders" like him today than there ever were. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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byronrose@...
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:50:34 -0800 Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@opendoor.com> writes: <snip> AsThe postscript to this is that every once in a while I wander into a little hobby shop tucked away in the corner of some small town and there's half dozen Gould kits just sitting in the shelf gathering dust. Well, maybe one shop, but it was within the last 2-3 years. BSR ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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