Larry,

I believe that this is what is coming from Sunshine Models, although it will
be a complete kit that includes an Intermountain tank. Apparently the holdup
is getting someone to etch the brass details that are to be included in the
kit: platforms, ladders, etc. I'm as eager as anyone to get these kits on the
market. Sunshine's earlier ACF 8,000-gal insulated tank car makes an
absolutely stunning model. They're a challenge to build, but the builder's
efforts are well rewarded. The new X-3 tank car was designed to greatly
lessen that "challenge" and still yield an outstanding and versatile model.

Charlie

3-5-01

This is a revision of a note I sent to John Nerich's NYB&W website. The
discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars prompts
me to repeat it:
Why couldn't one of the detail parts makers (ie, Detail Associates,
Tichy,New England Rail Service,etc)make a separate UTLX X-3 style
underframe in styrene that could be fitted to the several available tanks
from Tichy, Intermountain(especially Intermountain),and Red Caboose,perhaps
with a center sill that would be cut to length to suit the particular
tank.This could result in accurate UTLX models without the investment in
die work needed for the whole car, especially the tank. AB or K brake
options could be provided too.The data needed is available in the Car
Builder's Cyc and on museum cars.
I would think the "prototype conscious" crowd would provide a customer
base for such a part, even if not for complete UTLX kits. Remember that
UTLX was like PFE- the cars all looked much alike but were around in huge
numbers and went everywhere. Everybody needs a few!

LR King

Larry,
Sometime ago I measured three UTLX tankcars built prior to WWII. One was a
100,000lb (10,036 gal) capacity insulated car built 8-14-1920. The second
insulated car was 10,032 gal and built 6-23.The uninsulated one was a
80,000lb capacity built 10-37. All three had different end walks.

Will someone pick and manufacture the most comman centerframe, say the X-3
6,000 gal car, the 8,000 gal car or the 10000 gal car? Or is there a chance
the centerframe will be similar to the Tichy tankcar frame and allow for
some modification? Has Tichy or Grandt Line or Detail West shown any
interest in creating such a centerframe? I'd be interested in buy a coulpe
dozen. I'd be just as interested in buying a couple dozen of the 5 vertical
band tank cars. Just thoughts, any comments?
Larry Sexton

Dear Larry,

Your idea is great. You could probably guarantee a manufacturer that
each of the 200 or so people on this list would buy ten underframes. But
how could they cover the other 48,000 or so they need to sell to make any
money on it.

I hate to say it, but this is a subject best left to resin castings.
That's the only venue available to us for the real life quantities that
this type of model represents. Sorry.

Did'ja notice that LifeLike sold out all the built up tank car models
they brought in, while Martin Loftin is still begging people to buy his
kit? I guess that's not a fair comparison to make. How about this. I
built one P2K kit and than went and bought a dozen built ups. How many
others did the same?

And contrary to your casual remark about using existing tank castings,
'tain't so. It seems every tank car manufacturer used different
combinations of diameter and length to get to those 6, 8, and 10,000
gallon sizes. Using info from 50 years worth of Cycs, I've found only a
handful that could be adapted from the 4 existing riveted tanks, and then
only by diameter, their lengths would have to be changed. That doesn't
even begin to cover the 4, 6, and 12,000 gallon sizes.

I've also thought about making a pattern for some of those sizes to be
cast in resin. Making a proper coned rivet is the easy part, punching
them into brass only slightly less easy, rolling said shell and keeping a
curve behind each rivet completely escapes me. You see, each little
round pyramid reinforces the metal around it's base so that when the
shell is rolled, it will appear as though it a series of flat surfaces
joined by bent planes, rather than curved. Remember, those rivets on the
prototype were hammered in after the shell was curved. So far, we don't
have that luxury. The cast tanks available had the rivets cut into the
molds after the roll of the tank was cut.

OTOH, there's the possibility of using the same old NWSL rivets punched
into styrene sheet as usual, but then we'd have a tank that looked just
like all those imported brass models with those cute little dimples,
rather than the big, hefty RIVETS they need. How could we tell them
apart?

I'm still trying to get my act into order to make available copies of my
patterns for the corrected ACF tank car underframe which sits 65%
completed in a box on my work(?)bench. A URTX underframe was supposed to
be next. I hope that when Martin Loftin does his it's more accurate than
his ACF underframe.

Byron Rose


On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:07:48 -0500 Larry King <ab8180@...> writes:

3-5-01

This is a revision of a note I sent to John Nerich's NYB&W
website. The
discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars
prompts
me to repeat it:
Why couldn't one of the detail parts makers (ie, Detail
Associates,
Tichy,New England Rail Service,etc)make a separate UTLX X-3 style
underframe in styrene that could be fitted to the several available
tanks
from Tichy, Intermountain(especially Intermountain),and Red
Caboose,perhaps
with a center sill that would be cut to length to suit the
particular
tank.This could result in accurate UTLX models without the
investment in
die work needed for the whole car, especially the tank. AB or K
brake
options could be provided too.The data needed is available in the
Car
Builder's Cyc and on museum cars.
I would think the "prototype conscious" crowd would provide a
customer
base for such a part, even if not for complete UTLX kits. Remember
that
UTLX was like PFE- the cars all looked much alike but were around in
huge
numbers and went everywhere. Everybody needs a few!

LR King


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At 04:59 PM 3/11/2001 -0500, you wrote:

Dear Larry,

Your idea is great. You could probably guarantee a manufacturer that
each of the 200 or so people on this list would buy ten underframes. But
how could they cover the other 48,000 or so they need to sell to make any
money on it.
Maybe, but I see that Tichy sells his tank car underframe for $4.50 and I

bet even for twice that you'd have a market. Look at all the diesel detail
parts that are available. Are there REALLY that many people who are serious
diesel detailers?

I hate to say it, but this is a subject best left to resin castings.
That's the only venue available to us for the real life quantities that
this type of model represents. Sorry.
The trouble with this, is that the resin cars are going for about $30.00

apiece, and that mounts up too...

Did'ja notice that LifeLike sold out all the built up tank car models
they brought in, while Martin Loftin is still begging people to buy his
kit? I guess that's not a fair comparison to make. How about this. I
built one P2K kit and than went and bought a dozen built ups. How many
others did the same?
I guess I just don't care to have 10cts./hour Chinese labor doing my

modeling for me.

And contrary to your casual remark about using existing tank castings,
'tain't so. It seems every tank car manufacturer used different
combinations of diameter and length to get to those 6, 8, and 10,000
gallon sizes. Using info from 50 years worth of Cycs, I've found only a
handful that could be adapted from the 4 existing riveted tanks, and then
only by diameter, their lengths would have to be changed. That doesn't
even begin to cover the 4, 6, and 12,000 gallon sizes.

I disagree. The IM tanks are close enough that Sunshine is using them as
the basis of their kit, and I never said this would work for EVERY UTLX
car.So you have to kitbash a little...

I've also thought about making a pattern for some of those sizes to be

cast in resin. Making a proper coned rivet is the easy part, punching
them into brass only slightly less easy, rolling said shell and keeping a
curve behind each rivet completely escapes me. You see, each little
round pyramid reinforces the metal around it's base so that when the
shell is rolled, it will appear as though it a series of flat surfaces
joined by bent planes, rather than curved. Remember, those rivets on the
prototype were hammered in after the shell was curved. So far, we don't
have that luxury. The cast tanks available had the rivets cut into the
molds after the roll of the tank was cut.

OTOH, there's the possibility of using the same old NWSL rivets punched
into styrene sheet as usual, but then we'd have a tank that looked just
like all those imported brass models with those cute little dimples,
rather than the big, hefty RIVETS they need. How could we tell them
apart?

I'm still trying to get my act into order to make available copies of my
patterns for the corrected ACF tank car underframe which sits 65%
completed in a box on my work(?)bench. A URTX underframe was supposed to
be next. I hope that when Martin Loftin does his it's more accurate than
his ACF underframe.

Byron Rose


On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:07:48 -0500 Larry King <ab8180@...> writes:

3-5-01

This is a revision of a note I sent to John Nerich's NYB&W
website. The
discussion by Richard Hendrikson about the need for UTLX tank cars
prompts
me to repeat it:
Why couldn't one of the detail parts makers (ie, Detail
Associates,
Tichy,New England Rail Service,etc)make a separate UTLX X-3 style
underframe in styrene that could be fitted to the several available
tanks
from Tichy, Intermountain(especially Intermountain),and Red
Caboose,perhaps
with a center sill that would be cut to length to suit the
particular
tank.This could result in accurate UTLX models without the
investment in
die work needed for the whole car, especially the tank. AB or K
brake
options could be provided too.The data needed is available in the
Car
Builder's Cyc and on museum cars.
I would think the "prototype conscious" crowd would provide a
customer
base for such a part, even if not for complete UTLX kits. Remember
that
UTLX was like PFE- the cars all looked much alike but were around in
huge
numbers and went everywhere. Everybody needs a few!

LR King


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STMFC-unsubscribe@...



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On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:05:49 -0500 Larry King <ab8180@...> writes:

At 04:59 PM 3/11/2001 -0500, you wrote:

Dear Larry,

Your idea is great. You could probably guarantee a manufacturer

that

each of the 200 or so people on this list would buy ten

underframes. But

how could they cover the other 48,000 or so they need to sell to

make any

money on it.
Maybe, but I see that Tichy sells his tank car underframe for

$4.50 and I
bet even for twice that you'd have a market. Look at all the diesel
detail
parts that are available. Are there REALLY that many people who are
serious
diesel detailers?

Larry,

You missed my point, but I'll try to make them again.

1 Tichey has had his tank car on the market for 15-20 years and never
did sell very many of them because of an unfortunate choice of
unprototypical accuracy. He also does his own tooling on the cheap and
I'll bet you he still hasn't recouped his out-of-pocket on that kit. He
sells the underframes relatively cheap to get something out of it, but
since he doesn't have much in to begin with, they're cheap. Probably
cheaper than the Chinese would charge.

2 LifeLike and InterMountain have pretty much sated the market for a
good looking, buildable (or built up) tank car for those hundreds of
thousands of modelers who just want a tank car that doesn't look like the
Walthers/TMI/Mantua pieces of dreck that had overrun the market
previously.

3 DA and DW don't do their own tooling. They are at the mercy of people
who charge them great sums of money for products that they (DA/DW) are
familiar with and feel they can make a buck off of. Why should they get
into making tank car parts with absolutely no knowledge to base their
decisions on?

4 Would you want unknowledgable manufacturers making those parts and/or
decisions? Have you seen the early version of the IM PFE R40-10? Have
you tried to guess why they brought out a super version of it for 7 bucks
more? For us to pay for their lack of smarts the first time they tried
to do it.

4 If someone wanted to lose money making HO models, they'd be better
served making something that builds out of the box, uses a maximum of 3
materials to produce, comes painted, and needs no other parts purchased
to finish it. Like a Beano wagon top box car.

BSR
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1 Tichey has had his tank car on the market for 15-20 years and never
did sell very many of them because of an unfortunate choice of
unprototypical accuracy. He also does his own tooling on the cheap and
I'll bet you he still hasn't recouped his out-of-pocket on that kit. He
sells the underframes relatively cheap to get something out of it, but
since he doesn't have much in to begin with, they're cheap. Probably
cheaper than the Chinese would charge.

Byron is essentially right about this (aas about the other practical issues
involved in producing and marketing tank car parts), but, just for the
record, let's correct his oversimplification of history here. The
now-Tichy tank car was originally tooled by Bill Gould, whose knowledge of
prototype history was as defective as his die-making skills were superb.
(And, just to make sure blame goes where it should, even at this late date,
Gould was egged on by Bob Hundman who then, when the nonexistence of the
prototype was pointed out, tried to rewrite history rather than admit he
was wrong). Gould made some other unfortunate choices of prototypes to
model, sales of his kits fell far short of his expectations, and he
eventually sold all the tooling for the Gould kits to Tichy, who has
produced them ever since. No way to know what Tichy paid for Gould's
tooling, but it's a pretty safe bet that he paid a lot less than it cost to
produce, and probably a whole lot less than it would take to duplicate it
today.

Those of us who are into building kits (especially resin kits), kitbashing,
etc. are prone to forget how few of us there are, and what a miniscule
market we constitute for manufacturers. I have it on good authority that
the Life-Like and Intermountain built-ups go out the front door as fast as
they come in the back door while the kits languish on dealers' shelves. As
for kits like the Gould/Tichy cars, with all those little pieces that have
to be assembled and then - saints preserve us! - painted and lettered, I
happened to be in a large hobby shop in Southern Calif. when the Gould tank
car first came out. A modeler whose name is still regarded with great
reverence by the NMRA crowd came into the store to see what was new and the
owner handed him a Gould tank car kit. He opened the box, looked at all
those itty bitty styrene parts, blanched visibly, and blurted out, "Oh, I
could never build anything like that!" That was a long time ago, but, if
anything, there are more "model railroaders" like him today than there ever
were.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:50:34 -0800 Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@...> writes:

<snip>

As
for kits like the Gould/Tichy cars, with all those little pieces
that have
to be assembled and then - saints preserve us! - painted and
lettered, I
happened to be in a large hobby shop in Southern Calif. when the
Gould tank
car first came out. A modeler whose name is still regarded with
great
reverence by the NMRA crowd came into the store to see what was new
and the
owner handed him a Gould tank car kit. He opened the box, looked at
all
those itty bitty styrene parts, blanched visibly, and blurted out,
"Oh, I
could never build anything like that!" That was a long time ago,
but, if
anything, there are more "model railroaders" like him today than
there ever
were.

The postscript to this is that every once in a while I wander into a
little hobby shop tucked away in the corner of some small town and
there's half dozen Gould kits just sitting in the shelf gathering dust.
Well, maybe one shop, but it was within the last 2-3 years.

BSR
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