Topics

War Emergency Hoppers

Shawn Beckert
 

Hello List,

I spent part of the weekend poring over Ed Hawkins'
article in RMJ concerning the War Emergency hoppers
as modeled recently by Life-Like. To my regret, most
of the photographs in the article don't give info as
to where they were taken.

I hate to ask a neophyte question, but how far would
these hoppers have traveled in interchange? I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails. But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?

Shawn Beckert

Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service. If you look at any photos of coal
drags from the B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, VGN, they are long strings of cars only
from those roads with a VERY rare off-road hopper in the mix (for example an
N&W hopper drag contains only N&W cars, with maybe one VGN or C&O car mixed
in - modelers who put an N&W loco followed by hoppers from a number of
different roads are usually modeling a fictitious scene). These cars were
either to serve on line customers or to move coal to bulk shipment points
(the N&W loaded coal onto ocean freighters at Norfolk, VA and points on the
Great Lakes via other roads' rails - these cars would then almost always be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines). Some of these cars
would make it off line to other roads' rails, such as in the Northeast, but
the Anthracite roads' (CNJ, RDG, Erie, D&H, LV, LNE) cars were more commonly
seen offline in the Eastern US than their bituminous carrying cousins.

Richard and others will have to help you with the Western cars, although
comparatively, there were few hoppers west of Chicago.

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@...]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 1:39 PM
To: 'STMFC@...'
Subject: [STMFC] Re: War Emergency Hoppers


Hello List,

I spent part of the weekend poring over Ed Hawkins'
article in RMJ concerning the War Emergency hoppers
as modeled recently by Life-Like. To my regret, most
of the photographs in the article don't give info as
to where they were taken.

I hate to ask a neophyte question, but how far would
these hoppers have traveled in interchange? I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails. But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?

Shawn Beckert

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

ibs4421@...
 

Shawn,
Hoppers in coal service, by and large, are somewhat captive, but
not always so. Steve Johnson, my L&N/NC&StL/TC Sensei, and I were
discussing this one day. I had bought a set of TC hoppers and was wondering
just how much they would have been seen on L&N and NC&StL rails. Steve
provided me with a list of railroads that he had records for the TC hoppers
being interchanged with, it was quite extensive considering! Steve has
collected a lot of photos of freight cars over the years, and told me he had
one for an L&N twin bay hopper in Calif., and two Reading hoppers in an L&N
coal drag.
I'm a person that advocates reproducing/replicating the commonplace, not
the exception. However, we often hear "there is a prototype for
everything", and to a degree it's true. I plan on one day modleing an early
50's L&N coal drag of 50+ hoppers. the great majority of those cars will be
L&N, but a few NC&StL and TC hoppers will be seen, and there might just be
ONE oddball in the crowd. This, I think, is reasonable.

Warren
"This train goes down the Memphis Line!"

I hate to ask a neophyte question, but how far would
these hoppers have traveled in interchange? I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails. But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?

Shawn Beckert

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Shawn wrote:

I hate to ask a neophyte question, but how far would
these hoppers have traveled in interchange? I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails.
At the risk of starting a fire where none is needed ;^) I'm not sure that
your last statement is all that accurate...after all, if N&W hoppers made
it as far as SHerman Hill...<duck>

Really, although I would expect a higher percentage on "home rails" I would
not term these cars "captive". I would expect to see C&O and B&O cars on
the PRR for example, and yes, there are plenty of photos of N&W cars on the
PRR (and not just through trains of hoppers). However, one thing to
consider is that these cars probably do not represent major classes for
most of these roads and therefore should be outnumbered by memebers of the
major classes by a significant margin.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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ibs4421@...
 

Yeah, what Ted said!

Warren
Dreaming one day of modeling the Paris Shops on the Memphis Line

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Culotta" <ted@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: War Emergency Hoppers


I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service. If you look at any photos of
coal
drags from the B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, VGN, they are long strings of cars only
from those roads with a VERY rare off-road hopper in the mix (for example
an
N&W hopper drag contains only N&W cars, with maybe one VGN or C&O car
mixed
in - modelers who put an N&W loco followed by hoppers from a number of
different roads are usually modeling a fictitious scene). These cars
were
either to serve on line customers or to move coal to bulk shipment points
(the N&W loaded coal onto ocean freighters at Norfolk, VA and points on
the
Great Lakes via other roads' rails - these cars would then almost always
be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines). Some of these cars
would make it off line to other roads' rails, such as in the Northeast,
but
the Anthracite roads' (CNJ, RDG, Erie, D&H, LV, LNE) cars were more
commonly
seen offline in the Eastern US than their bituminous carrying cousins.

Richard and others will have to help you with the Western cars, although
comparatively, there were few hoppers west of Chicago.

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@...]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 1:39 PM
To: 'STMFC@...'
Subject: [STMFC] Re: War Emergency Hoppers


Hello List,

I spent part of the weekend poring over Ed Hawkins'
article in RMJ concerning the War Emergency hoppers
as modeled recently by Life-Like. To my regret, most
of the photographs in the article don't give info as
to where they were taken.

I hate to ask a neophyte question, but how far would
these hoppers have traveled in interchange? I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails. But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?

Shawn Beckert

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...







To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...



Richard Hendrickson
 

Ted Culotta, after a very good and succinct summary of hopper car traffic
patterns (also usefully supplemented by Bruce Smith) wrote:

Richard and others will have to help you with the Western cars, although
comparatively, there were few hoppers west of Chicago.
In the case of the War Emergency hoppers, the only western road that had
them was the Santa Fe (the Burlington hardly qualifies as western, from the
perspective of a native westerner, as Denver and Cody, WY are only on the
extreme eastern edge of the true west). The Santa Fe used their WE hoppers
for coal service on the eastern part of the system and also for borate
service on the Mojave desert in Calif. In neither role did they go
off-line much; all the photos I have show them on Santa Fe rails except for
one Paul Dunn shot of a Ga-62 at Zanesville, OH. The Q cars were used
mostly in Illinois coal service, as were the Illinois Central's. So the
generalization that these cars didn't stray far from home rails applies out
west as well as on the eastern coal roads.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Say it isn't so, Joe...er, Shawn,

You write:

I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails.
Oooooh no. I spent a month proving that coal bearing hopper cars not only
went off home rails, but did so frequently. I have then paid for this
eloquent enlightenment by finding N&W hopper cars showing up unexpectedly in
strange places on my Sherman Hill layout. Even in broad daylight. Here I go
again.

But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?
Stepping boldly into the abyss....I'd say it depends largely on the RR. This
is much too complex to be properly covered right now, but let me address
only one example. No, not the N&W but, rather the coal fields of Southern
Illinois. A couple of quotes from a great book, Burlington Bulletin, #35,
The Q in the Coal Fields:

Pg 104
"Under the first...interchange...the Q received loaded coal cars from
another RR, and both..."
"The Q received considerable interchange coal tonnage at certain points
along the Beardstown Div. At Forman, deep in Southern Illinois, the Q
interchanged with the NYC..."Further north, at Goreville, was the
interchange with the CE&I. Back to the north at Waltonville, the Q
interchanged with the Missouri Pacific and received coal from..."

Other major interchange occurred with the IC. Photos show both B&O and
Pennsy hoppers at the mines along with Q cars and those of IC & C&EI. Q
trains include Mopac, C&EI, IC hoppers.

Mike Brock

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Ted Culotta writes:

I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service. If you look at any photos of
coal
drags from the B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, VGN, they are long strings of cars only
from those roads with a VERY rare off-road hopper in the mix (for example
an
N&W hopper drag contains only N&W cars, with maybe one VGN or C&O car
mixed
in - modelers who put an N&W loco followed by hoppers from a number of
different roads are usually modeling a fictitious scene).
...Ooooh no, here we go again...Thompson and Hendrickson will be reaching
for more wine wondering if the TV might provide relief....Yes, trains would
contain mostly N&W cars, although I have noticed quite a few Clinchfield
cars coming out of Roanoke eastbound on video tapes. roads.

These cars were
either to serve on line customers or to move coal to bulk shipment points
(the N&W loaded coal onto ocean freighters at Norfolk, VA and points on
the
Great Lakes via other roads' rails -
Yes, but the largest...at least according to the Prince book...amount of
coal from the N&W went into the midwest...and, not on N&W tracks. Of 52
million tons of coal moved in '48, 22 million tons went west, 10 million
went to the Great Lakes, 10 million went through Lambert Point, and the rest
went into the South, VA, and DC areas. Of the 52 million, at least 30
million went off N&W rails.

these cars would then almost always be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines).
No doubt.

Some of these cars
would make it off line to other roads' rails, such as in the Northeast,
but
the Anthracite roads' (CNJ, RDG, Erie, D&H, LV, LNE) cars were more
commonly
seen offline in the Eastern US than their bituminous carrying cousins.
Yes, but those 32 million tons of coal traveling west and to the Great Lakes
did it on foreign tracks. The N&W might have been something of a "captive"
RR in that its coal trains consisted of...as you say...mostly N&W cars. But,
while few foreign coal carrying cars may have ventured onto N&W tracks, the
inverse is not true. N&W coal carrying cars requented foreign tracks often.

Anonymous

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service.
Ted's is the safe answer. There were exceptions: I have a number of
Southern Rwy conductors books from the 40's & early 50's for the main east
out of Asheville, NC -- I've got a count of 191 SOU hoppers listed (mostly
in company service), but well more than 200 hoppers from 26 other roads
(including the NYC, MILW, B&M, Alton, C&NW, and MSL to cite the most
unexpected).

Toledo Ohio -- Lots of N&W cars, no N&W rails. Brewster, Ohio on the NKP --
plenty of N&W hoppers. Some evidence they got to the steel industry near
Chicago.

Soldier Summit in Utah: plenty of D&RGW coal gons, but cars in coal service
from the MP, UP, WP, CBC, and B&LE appear in photos and much of the Utah
coal went to the pacific coast. On occasion there were DMIR ore jennies in
Utah on the LA&SL (U.S. Steel moved their cars around).

Dave Nelson

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

these cars would then almost always be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines).
No doubt.
Yes doubt. The ICC would occasionally have to issue service orders
requiring all roads in possession of hoppers from the VGN, N&W, and INT to
return them on release from the consignee -- no other loading allowed.
Happened to D&RGW cars once too.

Dave Nelson

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dave Nelson writes:

Ted's is the safe answer. There were exceptions: I have a number of
Southern Rwy conductors books from the 40's & early 50's for the main east
out of Asheville, NC -- I've got a count of 191 SOU hoppers listed (mostly
in company service), but well more than 200 hoppers from 26 other roads
(including the NYC, MILW, B&M, Alton, C&NW, and MSL to cite the most
unexpected).

Toledo Ohio -- Lots of N&W cars, no N&W rails. Brewster, Ohio on the
NKP --
plenty of N&W hoppers. Some evidence they got to the steel industry near
Chicago.

Soldier Summit in Utah: plenty of D&RGW coal gons, but cars in coal
service
from the MP, UP, WP, CBC, and B&LE appear in photos and much of the Utah
coal went to the pacific coast. On occasion there were DMIR ore jennies
in
Utah on the LA&SL (U.S. Steel moved their cars around).
Good stuff, Dave. I recall you mentioning the cars out of Asheville.

Mike

Shawn Beckert
 

Mike Brock, in the midst of an informative post, wrote:

Oooooh no. I spent a month proving that coal bearing
hopper cars not only went off home rails, but did so
frequently.
(Sigh). I'll have to get painfully specific here, which
I probably should have done in the first place. I model,
or am attempting to model, the St. Louis Southwestern as
it would have looked from roughly World War Two up until
the mid 1960's. From what I can tell from my sources of
information, the fixed plant of the railroad changed very
little in this period. Means I get to run 2-8-0's, FT's,
and if I feel frisky, GP-20's, all on the same layout. Not
all at the same time ,of course ;-)

My problem is nailing down the type of traffic that moved
on the Cotton Belt during these years. Since this was a
"bridge line" moving freight through the St. Louis gateway
to points West, I can get away with running all types of
cars, up to a point. What's hard is trying to pin down what
percentage of what kind of freight moved on the SSW. And one
of my problems is knowing how much coal - if any - they were
moving in my era of interest. I asked about the P2K hoppers
because I don't want to spend money on them if they wouldn't
normally be seen in Cotton Belt territory. Thus my question
to the List. Can anyone tell me with confidence that these
cars should not be represented on my railroad?

Shawn Beckert

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

Mike,

It appears to be established fact [*] that eastern road hoppers
went off-line. Question: when they went off line, did they do so as
[essentially] unit trains (i.e. all N&W hoppers together in a giant block)
or were they evenly distributed like box cars (an N&W car, then a C&O,
then a VGN, then a couple more N&W...).

Regards,

-Jeff

[*] If you state anything long and loud enough, people will believe you
:-)

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@...]
(Sigh). I'll have to get painfully specific here, which
I probably should have done in the first place. I model,
or am attempting to model, the St. Louis Southwestern as
it would have looked from roughly World War Two up until
the mid 1960's.
My problem is nailing down the type of traffic that moved
on the Cotton Belt during these years.
You want the ICC Commodity Classification reports. I placed a spreadsheet
copy of the Rutland report (from 1948) in the shared files area here on
egroups.com. In addition to the raw data, I converted the tons to carloads
etc. etc. Take a look and judge whether such info could be of use to you.
My source is Stanford Library -- their government document repository.
There are a few other major universities that have the same reports.

Dave Nelson

thompson@...
 

That coal hoppers went off line is not in dispute. That they did so "in
large numbers" is relative. The fact remains that most photos of coal
trains in coal country show very high percentages of home road cars. OTOH,
research has demonstrated that coal moved via certain routes off-line, e.g.
to the Great Lakes for export. But please note that such is NOT the same as
"going everywere off line," as we might expect with XM, FM, etc. cars.
I think if you want to model off-line coal hoppers, you need
documentation of what you choose to model. As someone else has said, the
favorite modeler's coal train in which every hopper is a different road is
plain silly. The farther we get from that, the better.
(All spoken, of course, by someone who has close to zero need to model
ANY coal cars of any description.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Bill Schneider <branch@...>
 

I can't speak to western roads - which for me include Nickel Plate :>) -
but I have done a study of freight train photos on the O&W in the 1950's
for my own roster that may add a couple of things to this discussion.

During the 50's the O&W operated primarily as a bridge line between the
LV and the NH/Erie/NYC/L&HR/L&NE at Maybrook, NY. Most of the O&W's
trains in this era are mixed consists and heavy on house cars, so this
will directly influence the results, but... most of the photos I have
that show hoppers are a mixed bag of road namesin a given train, and
seldom more than 2 of any given road. The most common hoppers on the O&W
are D&H - not surprising when you consider the locale. Pennsy also shows
up on a regular basis, again no surprise. However, I have seen single
B&O hoppers (including a war emergency car circa 1950) on a regular
basis. Also in singles: Cambria & Indiana, Montour, Illinois Central,
Berwind, Reading, NYC, L&NE, DL&W and Erie. Very rare are O&W hoppers,
most were rolling rubble by this point. Notably absent (so far) are N&W.
They must have run them over Young's Gap at night... (sorry Mike).

Based on this small sample I would have to say that individual cars
would not be uncommon on a road with predominantly mixed traffic. OTOH,
its not uncommon to see Pennsy coal drags with large blocks of Berwind,
Cambria & Indiana, C&O, B&O, L&N, N&W and other cars. So, as far as the
SSW goes, grab all the photos you can and see what shows up!

Bill Schneider



Jeff Aley - GCD PE wrote:

Mike,

It appears to be established fact [*] that eastern road hoppers
went off-line. Question: when they went off line, did they do so as
[essentially] unit trains (i.e. all N&W hoppers together in a giant block)
or were they evenly distributed like box cars (an N&W car, then a C&O,
then a VGN, then a couple more N&W...).

Regards,

-Jeff

[*] If you state anything long and loud enough, people will believe you
:-)

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

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Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

Tony's point is exactly right. When I used the N&W example, I meant it very
explicitly that the cars went to their offload or transshipment points on
foreign rails (after handoff to the foreign road by the N&W) and then went
promptly back to the N&W (and, yes, I'm sure that one out of 1,000 was kept
by the forwarding road for some purpose, but that's the EXCEPTION).

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@... [mailto:thompson@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:43 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: War Emergency Hoppers


That coal hoppers went off line is not in dispute. That they did so "in
large numbers" is relative. The fact remains that most photos of coal
trains in coal country show very high percentages of home road cars. OTOH,
research has demonstrated that coal moved via certain routes off-line, e.g.
to the Great Lakes for export. But please note that such is NOT the same as
"going everywere off line," as we might expect with XM, FM, etc. cars.
I think if you want to model off-line coal hoppers, you need
documentation of what you choose to model. As someone else has said, the
favorite modeler's coal train in which every hopper is a different road is
plain silly. The farther we get from that, the better.
(All spoken, of course, by someone who has close to zero need to model
ANY coal cars of any description.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Shawn Beckert
 

Bill Schneider wrote, in part:

...Based on this small sample I would have to say
that individual cars would not be uncommon on a
road with predominantly mixed traffic. OTOH, its
not uncommon to see Pennsy coal drags with large
blocks of Berwind, Cambria & Indiana, C&O, B&O, L&N
N&W and other cars. So, as far as the SSW goes, grab
all the photos you can and see what shows up!
Bill, that's exactly what I've been doing. Many a night
has been spent going over photographs and books with a
jeweler's glass trying to read reporting marks. A lot
of the pictures from that era and local are your typical
3/4 wedge shots, unfortunately. Most photographers then
were interested in the motive power and not the consist, a
common problem for us freight car fans.

I would give much to find some yard photos taken on the
Cotton Belt during the 1940's and '50's. There are a very
few out there, mostly in books, but they don't show much
in the way of detail. Ah well, the search goes on...

Shawn Beckert

Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

For what it's worth, Berwind cars had instructions painted on the cars
instructing to route either via the Pennsy or the C&O to get them back to
the Berwind-owned mines. Also, it was not an either/or proposition. Some
cars were assigned to mines using Pennsy lines, others to mines using C&O
lines.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 12:43 PM
To: 'STMFC@...'
Cc: 'branch@...'
Subject: [STMFC] Re: War Emergency Hoppers


Bill Schneider wrote, in part:

...Based on this small sample I would have to say
that individual cars would not be uncommon on a
road with predominantly mixed traffic. OTOH, its
not uncommon to see Pennsy coal drags with large
blocks of Berwind, Cambria & Indiana, C&O, B&O, L&N
N&W and other cars. So, as far as the SSW goes, grab
all the photos you can and see what shows up!
Bill, that's exactly what I've been doing. Many a night
has been spent going over photographs and books with a
jeweler's glass trying to read reporting marks. A lot
of the pictures from that era and local are your typical
3/4 wedge shots, unfortunately. Most photographers then
were interested in the motive power and not the consist, a
common problem for us freight car fans.

I would give much to find some yard photos taken on the
Cotton Belt during the 1940's and '50's. There are a very
few out there, mostly in books, but they don't show much
in the way of detail. Ah well, the search goes on...

Shawn Beckert

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tony Thompson writes:

That coal hoppers went off line is not in dispute. That they did so "in
large numbers" is relative. The fact remains that most photos of coal
trains in coal country show very high percentages of home road cars.
I believe that most photographic evidence will show that during the steam
era, N&W coal trains operating on N&W tracks contained a very high per
centage of N&W hoppers. I'm not nearly so certain about the C&O...primarily
because there were certain areas where coal was, I think, interchanged
between other RRs and the C&O. In particular, I refer to the L&N. Before
making a claim like that, I'd want to do some research, however.

OTOH,
research has demonstrated that coal moved via certain routes off-line,
e.g.
to the Great Lakes for export. But please note that such is NOT the same
as
"going everywere off line," as we might expect with XM, FM, etc. cars.
Here, things get a bit tricky. The Prince book shows...and there is a
pamphlet published by the N&W itself supporting Prince's book...that 22
million tons went west of N&W's coal fields...basically through Cicinnati.
Now, this stuff, apparently, found its way into Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois,
Chicago being mentioned. There was a lot of plants using coal back then in
those areas. I have seen some photos of groups of N&W hoppers in trains
moving through the area but real data would be needed to know for sure. The
B&O steam tape by Heron does show 4 or 5 N&W hoppers being moved near a B&O
coaling tower in the upper midwest. Tony is certainly correct in his
statement about hoppers not going everywhere off line. In fact, I recall
being told at one time in the 50s that coal could only be shipped about 400
miles by rail economically. Now, I don't know how accurate that statement
was, but....

I think if you want to model off-line coal hoppers, you need
documentation of what you choose to model. As someone else has said, the
favorite modeler's coal train in which every hopper is a different road is
plain silly. The farther we get from that, the better.
Yes. However, IF one were to model the Q in the Southern Illinois coal
fields, one might come closer to that than in other areas. Apparently some
mines were served by as many as 5 RRs with one...and it changed every
yr...providing the motive power. Thus, photos show mine yds with IC, Q, MP,
C&EI and NYC cars present. My all time favorite, of course, is that damned
Lackawanna [ heck, I don't know how to spell it, why should I? ] hopper
behind the Challenger on Sherman Hill. Second, though, has to be the lone MP
hopper in the long string of B&O cars heading from Lake Erie back to West BY
God Virginia. Well, both B&O and MP cars WERE black, after all.

Mike Hopper Brock