What is a "Manuta gondola"?
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vapeurchapelon
Hello friends,
please have a look: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-Gondola-Manuta-Brass-/293883692178?hash=item446cd54492%3Ag%3AIlQAAOSwGLVfzU-P&nma=true&si=jJ9crt7mxFt%252FrEXQ%252F9OQy%252F5woGY%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 I have never seen this car before. Anyone of you knowing something about it? Is this after a US prototype at all? Many thanks Johannes Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
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Schuyler Larrabee
I suspect it’s a typo for Mantua. The listing has ended so couldn’t look at it.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of vapeurchapelon
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 1:03 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] What is a "Manuta gondola"?
Hello friends,
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Not Mantua. And it does not appear to be US prototype but does appear to be high quality brass.
On 12/8/2020 1:37 PM, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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IF you scroll to the bottom of the listing you will see a series of photos, of a short dump car, that has a raised sloped center board to send the contents outward. The listing says no couplers, but the photos clearly show Kadee couplers on the car. Looks to be sitting on a green Overland box, but no end of the box is shown. I would guess the seller does not know what he is selling.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 12:37 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] What is a "Manuta gondola"?
I suspect it’s a typo for Mantua. The listing has ended so couldn’t look at it.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of vapeurchapelon
Hello friends,
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Tim,
What makes you think it is not a US prototype? I'm trying to develop my observational skills so any help would be appreciated. I confess I'm not great at detail spotting, but I've seen side dump hoppers of similar construction in photos I've searched for my time period. It looks like a side dump ballast car for non-revenue service. I've certainly seen US steam era cars with brake staffs on both ends of a car. It is hard to tell how short it is, although the trucks do seem to have fairly close spacing for a 40' car. Steel cars existed from the beginning of the 20th century (if not very common), and some cars can be short. Length alone would not eliminate it from US prototype. Is it the grab placement? What do you see that suggests non-US prototype? -- ____________________________ David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34
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mopacfirst
I'm not sure that's an Overland box. Judging by the archbar trucks, this would be an early 20th century prototype, and I can't rule out that it could be a US prototype. It's not European or from a country that uses chains and buffers for coupling.
Ron Merrick
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Ray Hutchison
Interesting car... strange that drop bottom/sides are not functional (and not shown in the interior of the care). If you click on the siting, youcan see the sellers other listings (about 10 brass models when I looked) and you can get the individuals contact information if you want to ask additional questions.
rh
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vapeurchapelon
Hello friends,
many thanks for every reply - seems to be a hard nut to crack though.
And because of this apparently this is no "must-have-model".
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 09. Dezember 2020 um 16:07 Uhr
Von: "mopacfirst" <ron.merrick@...> An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] What is a "Manuta gondola"? I'm not sure that's an Overland box. Judging by the archbar trucks, this would be an early 20th century prototype, and I can't rule out that it could be a US prototype. It's not European or from a country that uses chains and buffers for coupling.
Ron Merrick
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This is a picture of a real car used on a private railroad for cattle feeding, it resembles the model.
Picture from an old 1953 Railroad Magazine Ron Christensen
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Steve Summers
The brass model is more like the ACL phosphate car that Ambroid made a model of in their one-in-5000 kit line in the late 1950’s-early 1960’s:
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On Dec 12, 2020, at 1:18 PM, ron christensen via groups.io <rxensen@...> wrote:
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vapeurchapelon
Hello Ron,
many thanks! Though I can see lots of differences between the model and the photos you provided, the general design, size and shape seems to be identical. Even more clear now that this is not a model I would need, however nicely done.
Many greetings
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
Gesendet: Samstag, 12. Dezember 2020 um 19:18 Uhr
Von: "ron christensen via groups.io" <rxensen@...> An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] What is a "Manuta gondola"? This is a picture of a real car used on a private railroad for cattle feeding, it resembles the model.
Picture from an old 1953 Railroad Magazine Ron Christensen
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vapeurchapelon
Hello Steve,
are you sure you did compare with the model in the link I provided? I am sorry, but I heavily disagree with your statement.
Many greetings
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
Gesendet: Samstag, 12. Dezember 2020 um 19:37 Uhr
Von: "Steve Summers via groups.io" <summers1218@...> An: main@realstmfc.groups.io Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] What is a "Manuta gondola"? The brass model is more like the ACL phosphate car that Ambroid made a model of in their one-in-5000 kit line in the late 1950’s-early 1960’s:
On Dec 12, 2020, at 1:18 PM, ron christensen via groups.io <rxensen@...> wrote:
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Steve Summers
I’m going back to the brass ‘manuta’ gon model picture.
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On Dec 12, 2020, at 1:46 PM, vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...> wrote:
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you are correct Johannes - not remotely similar to ACL phosphate hoppers
On 12/12/2020 1:45 PM, vapeurchapelon wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Larry Goolsby
Correct - the prototype of the Ambroid model had a single longitudinal hopper that dumped between the rails. Other ACL phosphate hoppers had two or four transverse hoppers similar to coal hoppers. This specific prototype was an unusual composite of a steel bottom and wood top. This class (which was U-4 by the way, not "H-4" as on the old Ambroid decal set) was later rebuilt into open hoppers by removing the wood superstructure. Seaboard Air Line had a similar fleet. The ACL & SAL HS magazine Lines South ran three articles on ACL-SAL-SCL phosphate hoppers in issues during 2002-03 - a couple are still in print but all 3 are available on a DVD of issue pdfs at https://aclsal.square.site/shop/-lines-south-magazine/8.
Larry Goolsby
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Louis Adler
I have no idea who is the manufacturer, but until someone can specifically identify the product producer, I would not jump to the conclusion that it is not Mantua. Why? How many know that AHM (Yes, that AHM) produced a brass NYC 4-6-4 in the 1970's? I actually saw the engine as it was bought by a Dallas model RR friend who brought it to the standard Friday lunch group. As far as I know, it was the only brass product that AHM produced.
While I doubt that the gondola is a Mantua product, I would not discount it without some hard evidence. Perhaps Mantua wanted to test the brass import waters just as AHM did.. Lou Adler
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I don’t know of any NYC 4-6-4 by AHM, but they did have a Milwaukee Road “Baltic” 4-6-4 in brass. Kind of “Plain Jane”, but typical of the period.
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Dan Mitchell ==========
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Schuyler Larrabee
AHM did a PRR S2 as well.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2020 12:17 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] What is a "Manuta gondola"?
I don’t know of any NYC 4-6-4 by AHM, but they did have a Milwaukee Road “Baltic” 4-6-4 in brass. Kind of “Plain Jane”, but typical of the period.
Dan Mitchell ==========
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While I think it VERY unlikely that Mantua had anything to do with the odd brass gondola in question, remember that Mantua got started offering BRASS locomotive kits. These were mostly models of wide-firebox anthracite burners (Reading RR? with arched-top cab windows. I don’t recall what variations there were, but IIRC there were 0-4-0 (Camelback “Goat”), 4-4-2, and 4-6-2 at least. Construction was sheet brass similar to later imported brass models but you had to assemble them yourself.
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Only the little "Goat” survived in new form in Mantua’s later die cast and plastic eras. In this later time they also did several other Camelbacks. Dan Mitchell ==========
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Kenneth Montero
AHM also imported a brass
-- 2-10-4 PRR J-1. Item 402.
-- 4-6-4 Milwaukee Baltic. Item 405.
-- 4-6-2 Pacific AT&SF. Item 425
Here is a link to more locomotives: http://ho-scaletrains.com/ahm-brass-steam-locomotives/ It does not list the AT&SF locomotive, but photos of that locomotive with a box label for AHM show up in an online search
Ken Montero
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