Why were gondolas more popular in the west for hauling minerals than hoppers?
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Western railroads had a preference for gondolas than hoppers which were more common in the east. Was it due to mineral traffic or just gondolas being more universal than hoppers?
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Robert G P
I believe its origins are in mineral traffic/ores. Of course for heavy ore a gondola is not as appropriate as a dedicated ore car but originally the western roads only had gondolas. But id say there is more to the story here. I believe another reason is indeed the universal nature of a gondola as opposed to the hopper, and again early on the western roads had more gons than hoppers as opposed to the eastern roads which specialized in hauling coal. -Rob On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 1:32 AM Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote: Western railroads had a preference for gondolas than hoppers which were more common in the east. Was it due to mineral traffic or just gondolas being more universal than hoppers? |
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Paul Catapano
I’m not sure that’s exactly true. If we consider mineral traffic only, I have numerous photos of gondolas on the “Major” coal hauling roads loaded with coal. So called “Battleship Gons” on the Virginian or C&O come directly to mind. Admittedly this, in and of itself, is not proof, but I suspect that if you picked an “Eastern” road out of a hat you might find that they rostered substantial numbers of gondolas.
Paul Catapano Winchester, VA. |
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I can't speak for the west but the L&N moved a lot of coal in gondolas. When coal was a common home heating fuel, there were many local retail coal yards. Many smaller yards were not equipped to dump hoppers, so those yards ordered coal in gondolas for unloading out the top. Chuck Peck On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 9:47 AM Paul Catapano <pc66ot@...> wrote: I’m not sure that’s exactly true. If we consider mineral traffic only, I have numerous photos of gondolas on the “Major” coal hauling roads loaded with coal. So called “Battleship Gons” on the Virginian or C&O come directly to mind. Admittedly this, in and of itself, is not proof, but I suspect that if you picked an “Eastern” road out of a hat you might find that they rostered substantial numbers of gondolas. |
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A gondola can be unloaded almost anywhere -- and in long strings -- while a hopper car requires a below track level access of some kind, possibly with a conveyor to lift the cargo back to ground level. I was amazed in 1996 to see 52 foot mill gondolas -- entire train loads! - loaded with stone for paving and concrete in Houston. I asked about it and was told they were unloaded at least partly with manual labor! At the cost of minimum wage labor it was economical to do this rather than invest in special facilities. On 12/6/2022 9:46 AM, Paul Catapano wrote: I’m not sure that’s exactly true. If we consider mineral traffic only, I have numerous photos of gondolas on the “Major” coal hauling roads loaded with coal. So called “Battleship Gons” on the Virginian or C&O come directly to mind. Admittedly this, in and of itself, is not proof, but I suspect that if you picked an “Eastern” road out of a hat you might find that they rostered substantial numbers of gondolas. Paul Catapano --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Not just coal, but coke too. On 12/6/2022 9:46 AM, Paul Catapano wrote: I’m not sure that’s exactly true. If we consider mineral traffic only, I have numerous photos of gondolas on the “Major” coal hauling roads loaded with coal. So called “Battleship Gons” on the Virginian or C&O come directly to mind. Admittedly this, in and of itself, is not proof, but I suspect that if you picked an “Eastern” road out of a hat you might find that they rostered substantial numbers of gondolas. Paul Catapano Winchester, VA --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Western roads did not have as much mineral traffic as some eastern roads. So they preferred drop bottom gons, which were more versatile. Gons could be used for loads other than mineral so they did not sit around like unused hoppers.
Doug Harding https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/ Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Carson via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2022 12:33 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Why were gondolas more popular in the west for hauling minerals than hoppers?
Western railroads had a preference for gondolas than hoppers which were more common in the east. Was it due to mineral traffic or just gondolas being more universal than hoppers? |
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Doug
People who don't model western railroads often think that. :-) In 1955 over 20% of the SP's freight cars were gondolas, mostly GS and Hart gondolas (which were classified as hoppers in the ORER) And almost 20% of the fleet was flat cars !! (Nobody originated more lumber than the SP, I think.) The SP and T&NO moved a LOT of rock and sand and even sulfur in gondolas (and hoppers too). Sugar beets, and lemons too. The cars tended to stay online, just as eastern coal cars tended to do the same. On 12/6/2022 11:52 AM, Douglas Harding wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Ray Breyer
And, this completely discounts all of the MIDwestern roads who also had larger fleets of coal-hauling gondolas (instead of hoppers). The IC, C&NW, L&N, CB&Q, M&StL, Soo, Big Four, and other mineral-hauling roads in the midwest all ran huge gondola fleets through the 1950s, when hoppers took over. All of thesese roads (and others) mostly hauled coal (people tend to forget that Illinois is the third largest coal producing state, after PA and WV). Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 11:06:50 AM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Doug
People who don't model western railroads often think that. :-) In 1955 over 20% of the SP's freight cars were gondolas, mostly GS and Hart gondolas (which were classified as hoppers in the ORER) And almost 20% of the fleet was flat cars !! (Nobody originated more lumber than the SP, I think.) The SP and T&NO moved a LOT of rock and sand and even sulfur in gondolas (and hoppers too). Sugar beets, and lemons too. The cars tended to stay online, just as eastern coal cars tended to do the same. On 12/6/2022 11:52 AM, Douglas Harding wrote: Western roads did not have as much mineral traffic as some eastern roads. So they preferred drop bottom gons, which were more versatile. Gons could be used for loads other than mineral so they did not sit around like unused hoppers.
Doug Harding https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/ Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
<main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray
Carson via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2022 12:33 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Why were gondolas more popular in the west for hauling minerals than hoppers?
Western
railroads had a preference for gondolas than hoppers which
were more common in the east. Was it due to mineral traffic
or just gondolas being more universal than hoppers? -- Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Dennis Storzek
On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 12:21 PM, Ray Breyer wrote:
All of these roads (and others) mostly hauled coal (people tend to forget that Illinois is the third largest coal producing state, after PA and WV).And the Soo did a big business in "lake coal", eastern coal shipped as back haul on ore boats to Ashland and Superior, Wisc. Dennis Storzek |
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Jerry Michels
Ray, We need to include the Missouri Pacific which hauled a lot of coal from Southern Illinois to St. Louis and for its own use system-wide. I think the assumption that 'western roads' used more gondolas than hoppers needs to be looked at more closely. Where is the distinction drawn between mid-western and western, the Rockies? Jerry Michels |
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Dave Nelson
In the steam era there wasn’t much coal west of the Mississippi as compared to the east, hardly any relatively. More on the east bank but still not as much as back east. So why have a fleet of hoppers large enough for the fall rush of heating coal sit around for most of the year? GS gons could carry everything.
Dave Nelson |
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Chuck Soule
Another factor is the density of the mineral. Coal is less dense than metallic minerals, so a gondola that would be loaded full with ore would overflow if you tried to fill it with the same tonnage of coal. So - you get a hopper with higher sides.
Chuck Soule |
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Ray Breyer
Lol. Good luck locking down an "actual" definition of "the Midwest". Ohio is technically part of the Midwest, but REAL Midwesterners think of Ohio as "the East Coast". Likewise, we think of anywhere west of Nebraska or Kansas as "the West". Usually, we refer to anywhere west of Iowa and on to the Rockies as the Great Plains, separate from the Midwest. Then there's the idea that Kentucky and Missouri could EITHER be part of the Midwest or "the South". And is Texas south or west? Or "Southwest"? And nobody wants Michigan. :-) Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 01:21:54 PM CST, Jerry Michels <gjmichels53@...> wrote:
Ray, We need to include the Missouri Pacific which hauled a lot of coal from Southern Illinois to St. Louis and for its own use system-wide. I think the assumption that 'western roads' used more gondolas than hoppers needs to be looked at more closely. Where is the distinction drawn between mid-western and western, the Rockies? Jerry Michels |
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Josh
An unused car is a liability. Not only does it make no profit, it costs money merely to store. Coal, like livestock and sugarbeets, is a seasonal commodity. Yes, there was a year-round demand for industrial coal, but demand from consumers and production at the mines skyrocketed in the fall and disappeared in the early spring. Ores and gravels are heavy. Coal and coke are light. Hoppers built for coal must carry a smaller cubic capacity of ores or gravel; the shippers didn't care about this and tended to overfill coal hoppers, thus damaging the cars. Gondolas are not limited to bulk loading. A gondola is merely a flatcar with sides. A railroad can ship anything that will fit inside of a gondola - machinery, large castings, lumber, etc. They can't do the same with a hopper car. It made more economic sense, and prevented car idling, for most railroads to merely use a general-purpose drop bottom gondola that could be used for a variety of loads. That way there are not massive numbers of expensive coal hoppers lying around in the summer, idle because they cannot be used for any other loads. The D&RGW's fleet of Pressed Steel Car Company drop bottom gondolas was built and maintained specifically because of these factors - they could be used to haul coal, beets, and mineral products as equally reliably, and in between shipped mining equipment, agricultural machinery, scrap metal, poles, finished lumber, or anything else that fit within the approximately 40-foot interior length. Before the arrival of the Bethlehem steel hoppers, the D&RGW *did* own some steel two-bay coal hoppers inherited from the Rio Grande Western, but they were not well liked because the copper/lead/silver mines at Bingham Canyon kept overfilling them, in spite of the white line painted across the side to indicate upper loading limits, which resulted in the sides bulging out and bursting. The older Bethlehem hoppers assigned to limestone flux traffic to Geneva Steel had the same problem, hence why only the oldest, most clapped-out cars wound up in that dedicated assignment. -Josh B. |
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Tony Thompson
Ray Carson wrote:Ray asks an interesting question, but states it, in my own opinion, backwards. Western railroads had similar percentages of gondolas in their fleets as did most railroads, often near the average of at the national fleet (20 percent). So they didn’t “prefer” gondolas. They just didn’t own many hoppers. One example is SP, whose hoppers in the transition era were mostly ballast cars. This did change with era. By the 1960s, roads that had moved coal in gondolas previously (like D&RGW) changed to hoppers. So this is an era-dependent question, too. Tony Thompson tony@... |
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Dave
??? Perhaps you have not heard of Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, or even Arizona, or Washington ? :-D On 12/6/2022 3:31 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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akerboomk
Note also that in the ORERs, early on (thru the USRA gons) many gondolas were listed as "Coal Cars", at least for the B&M
The B&M USRA gons were listed as "Coal cars" thru their demise in 1954 -- Ken Akerboom http://bmfreightcars.com/ |
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And here's something to ponder for Southern Pacific modelers -- Because most SP gondolas tended to stay on the railroad most of the time (probably 90% or more of the time), and because box cars were more randomly distributed in general -- and this meant that SP box cars were OFFLINE more than 50% of the time (I don't have exact numbers for SP but I do for GN and NP) -- the result is that on a MODEL railroad of the SP, about 25% or more of the company cars (SP/T&NO/et al) should be gondolas! :-) Of course the concentration of the cars depends on local factors, since rock & sand tend to travel short distances. The SP postwar started to acquire side-dump steel hopper cars, and 2 bay and 3 bay hoppers, and eventually bought no more GS gondolas after the final orders of 70 ton, welded GS gondolas in the 1950's (including cars designed specifically for wood chips). On 12/6/2022 4:16 PM, Tony Thompson wrote: Ray Carson wrote: Western railroads had a preference for gondolas than hoppers which were more common in the east. Was it due to mineral traffic or just gondolas being more universal than hoppers? Ray asks an interesting question, but states it, in my own opinion, backwards. Western railroads had similar percentages of gondolas in their fleets as did most railroads, often near the average of at the national fleet (20 percent). So they didn’t “prefer” gondolas. They just didn’t own many hoppers. One example is SP, whose hoppers in the transition era were mostly ballast cars. This did change with era. By the 1960s, roads that had moved coal in gondolas previously (like D&RGW) changed to hoppers. So this is an era-dependent question, too. Tony Thompson --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts |
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From the early 20th century on oil was the primary energy source for California. Instead of coal hoppers it was tank cars until pipelines replaced them. In the first decade of the 20th century the Southern Pacific converted its steam locomotives to burn oil on the Pacific Lines. Other lines were forced to burn oil by state legislation to satisfy the newly minted oil barons. Coastal California homes didn't have coal burning furnaces as they only required modest heating in winter. Gas (originally used for home lighting) was used for heating and cooking. Hydro-electric generation provided most of the electricity until the demand outstripped hydroelectric capacity in the last half of the 20th century.
Oddly enough I understand the SP continued to use coal for heating stoves and furnaces in 19th century built company buildings until the 1960's. The coal was moved about in open company gondolas GS series and other gondolas. The classic 1956 photo below of Port Costa shows a pair of SP gondolas in front of the freight house loaded with coal. I would guess these were moved as company freight and spotted on similar house tracks and the coal bagged or wheelbarrowed to distribute to the SP company buildings. I have no accurate knowledge of the source of the SP's company coal but there coal mines in the eastern slope Coastal Range just west of Tracy active into the 20th century and served by a CP/SP railroad branch. Then there was the Tesla Mine and the Alameda & San Joaquin Railroad (later a WP branch) in the same area. (see https://wikimapia.org/1787312/Tesla-Coal-Mine-Corral-Hollow). But these mines closed in 1911.  -- Ken Adams Covid Variants may come and go but I choose to still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude Location: About half way up Walnut Creek Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io |
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